Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was thinking today about the next generation of Alterna addicts. All "busting chops" aside, does anyone ever go to any herp meetings where they see the new generation of herpers? It scares me that all these laws or regulations may sway the younger generation to ignore Alterna and stick with Ball Pythons or Cornsnakes. (not that either are bad) I know that our community is somewhat small but I think it only right to try and get some new blood into our small cult. Any thoughts? I know some of you have young children, but my thoughts were to new members. I know my own enthusiasm. I know how much I start to sweat when I see Alterna. Just curious if others will follow us, or are we a dying generation...

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

Hey Steve,

just for the record, it's just creepin' up on 2:30am here in NY and the ONLY reason I'm up is because I'm preparing a presentation for work that I have to do in about 7.5 hours. BUT, I needed my internet herp fix to give me a natural jolt. But I hear what you're saying in your message. Although the NYHS has died down over the last few years, I see the trends that are going on up here. Even though the possession of all boid and python species is banned here in NY, those blasted designer balls are ALL OVER THE PLACE and the hustling to make the sale is unreal. The younger folks are enthralled with the designer stuff and the bright colors, and it makes for such commercialism and, to a certain degree, takes away from the essence of herpetoculture. I'm not perfect either, as I'd gotten caught up in the albino Honduran milk thing back in the early-mid '90's when I was a bit greener around the edges. But man, natural aging and being out in the field (not in Texas yet, but other pristine places such as the Pine Barrens in southern New Jersey for example...) have really changed me within the context of this beloved hobby of ours. Not only do I gawk at some of the more outrageous alternas, such as the recent forum pic of the Black Gap or a sweet Hueco that I've learned to appreciate over the last two years (yeah I'm a virgin, shush -- lol). But nonetheless, I work with my daughter who is 8 to admire the candy-like, plastic-looking specimens but to moreso appreciate the foundation for all that fluff. Case-in-point -- we went out to the Barrens last weekend with a couple of friends. September is prime for that place, and one of the most coveted animals (aside from a robust black and white protected Northern pinesnake) to locate is the very fossorial Coastal Plains milk (L.t.temporalis). To our amazement, after three of us lifting a HUGE stone slab (in which we've lifted hundreds of times in years past), an adult temporalis was there is all his glory. After my dancing a jig, one of the first things my daughter said was "daddy, it's not as colorful and bright as some of the other milksnakes I see". So exactly what you're saying Steve is what went through my mind last Saturday. So much so, that I made it a point to have a conversation with my daughter about appreciating natural selection versus man-made/influenced phenotypes (of course, using MUCH simpler language, lol). Good post Steve.

Jerry Kruse

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Jerry, Thanks for your response. Congrats on the incredible finds in the barrens. I have heard "coach" talk about them. If I ever get up that way I will definitely have to take a look. Northern Pines are majestic animals. Habitat destruction has really taken a toll on all pine snakes...(like everything else).

I know that Texas Orgs are doing what they can to fight the regulations... But if nobody comes out to enjoy the wildlife, what is the point. It never really bothers me to see folks out hunting in West Texas. I enjoy swapping stories (during the day) and the overall experience.

Lance and I did our interviews this summer for the Snake Hunting documentary that was being filmed. I doubt that I did a good job conveying how much I love the area. How amazing it is to step out of your door to a new adventure each night. Never knowing if you are going to get skunked or see un altra light 1 in a million Black Gap Alterna morph.

Spread The Gospel Folks... Alterna... Amen...

Best Wishes,

SXO792

I know this is the "alterna" page but any chance of posting a pic of the "temporalis"? I've hunted them years ago in Virginia, Maryland and N. Carolina and know how elusive they can be. I have never found one myself. They're kind of the "alterna" of the east!

Stu

Hey Stu,

sorry for the late response. Been busy building snake racks. I have this temporalis in my office presently, but I'll snap off a couple pics and send it to you as not to muddle up the alterna stuff. But it was an awesome moment and they are TOUGH to find. The weather conditions were appropriate, and September seems to be THE month for them (in that locality, anyway). Talk to you soon.

Jerry Kruse

Thanks Jerry

Yes I know they are not easy to find. Kinda like the grayband of the east! I look forward to the picks.

Thanks

Stu

Steve, It is interesting from a reptile show point of view that the trend is to focus on balls, and the like. To me they all look the same and or man made. My personal interest is in kings and milks, but 90 % of my personal interest is with graybands.

I can't understand why there is so much attention to other stuff and so little given to alterna. I think the feeding and breeding issues (that everyone else has)limit the general public's participation in our hobby and pull the trend towards other species.

There are not many people who actually want to buy and sell a snake species that has trouble feeding compared to other species. 80 to 90% of the time It takes work and dedication to get alterna hatchlings started. Most younger people I have met are not willing to put in the time, and the dedication has to come from within. Hats off to Mike Russo for putting together a great table at White plains! Mike represented graybands well at the show. Clearly Mike has decided to work with his favorite species and not just try to work with "stuff that sells".

For me, I looked for feeding alterna at shows untill I visited west Texas and understood the natural environment and a little about how the snakes fit in, then anything goes and I was hooked on alterna. Being out in alternaland formed my deep interest in alterna.

With the new collecting law I think that we could be a dying breed. Alterna addicts will always exist, I just don't see us being a big part of the hobby, and I think that generic blairs hatchlings that feed (with no tricks) could lead to graybands gaining popularity in the herp show hobby,but will not create true alterna addicts.

The good news is I know several hunters who are now bringing their older kids out and some of these kids are the new generation.

Jim

And I hope to have a couple little alterna hunters of my own one day!

I have been saying for a while now that once the ball python craze tapers off (which I believe is happening right now) more herpers will turn back to colubrids in general.. I think it's up to us to help educate others on the basic husbandry of alterna..

That's why it bothers me when alterna newbie’s come to the forum to ask a "beginner" type question and end up being ignored or even worse getting reamed out for miss representing a local on a snake they are obviously interested in, but know nothing about.. I am sure you will agree that this forum can be tough at times and we tend to scare newbie’s off.

I remember the first time I ever saw a live Alterna.. I was hooked right then and there! But, if I came here and got slammed for asking a "silly" question.. Things may have turned out different for me and i too could be breeding Albino Spider Sided Blushing Reverse Dot Ball Pythons!!

If we truly want the "New Generation" to be interested in Alterna I think we all need to work at it...

I know I am trying on my end!

~ Mike Russo

And, thank you for the compliment Jim!!

Ok... We need to be more "welcoming" to new folks. You are correct... I know we tend to "haze" sometimes. It is a natural right of passage handed down from the generations.

- Mike: I hope you know I was only "bustin chops" a couple of months ago. So I hope you know I am sorry. (on a side note, I was reading the new reptiles mag and low and behold in the article about Blood Pythons they have a "cherry bomb" phase)
LOL

Best wishes

SXO792

I do not consider myself the new generation but have only been hunting Alterna for about 8 years. I remember loging on for the first time and asking questions and waiting very patiently for some good info, only to find that I was just ignored by most. Some guys would tell me things but at first I was really just ignored. It almost seemed like I had to prove myself to get genuine answers from the whole. I used my snake pics to show that I was out hunting and catching snakes. I am seeing a change in the way newbees are treated and like what I see. I enjoy telling anyone what I know about my snakes when they have a question. I owe what I know to you guys and some very good friends that hunt alterna.
I do think that newbees will have problems getting started because of our new laws restricting us to private land and the parks systems not allowing us to hunt state land.
I am also dissapointed in how the law has limited so many of us in the fact we do not feel comfortable in posting what has been caught this year.
Informing the new generation of the knowledge, wonders and excitement we posses from hunting and keeping Alterna is the ticket to gaining a new generation in our Alterna coulture.

Matt Ilseng

my little monkey will be a herper!

Saw Ed's video of him doing the robot with a suboc around his neck.
Best part of the video for sure.
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V.P.
Austin Herp. Soc.

Anybody here knows that I love alterna, and I always do what I can to demonstrate the variety and the challenges I enjoy with alterna.

To me they are a lot of work to catch and sometimes to keep and breed, but worth every drop of sweat and tears.

I stumbled into a localized TX forum that seems to be made up of passionate newbies. They have a variety of interest but not many of them are in tune with breeders and such, instead they deal with pet stores, retailers and each other. I will be their Obi-Wan to Alterna...

I am posting pics and stories, letting them get to know me and maybe there will be a few of them interested in a trip to the holy land next spring? And maybe even more of them interested in native TX herps will put some voice into our current issues, after all we have the same monster peeking out from the closet.

Lance

If we really cared about the next generation we would share all. The mindset in today’s world is to make a buck unfortunately. It is not the reality when it comes to the Greyband as they are worthless in a monetary sense it is more today’s mindset driven by unparalleled laziness.

Here is my case and point. I work for ten years on an issue involving fertility in Greyband and finally get a breakthrough that will help everyone why should I help some punk kid that sits in front of a computer all day or anyone else for that matter? I did the work I should reap the benefit.

The flip side is collective information shared on the forums that build in a way that you will not and cannot find in books as books only capture a snapshot of information relative to the writer and his mindset at the time of publication. The bulk of his information was copied from another book from someone he respects and the information is recycled and static and in most cases antiquated.

Yes some one will have to blaze a new trail and break from tradition, some of the better breeders opening up to share what works every time and some computer geek kid that realizes that he will write a new book breaking from tradition and getting his butt into the field to collect some hard data like, where does a gravid Greyband female actually nest? What do they do at what time of the year do they do it?

For all I know they are nothing more than a colorful earthworm that gets flushed out by the occasional rainstorm. They might go dormant for six years at a time for all I know. Maybe there are some that spend their whole life underground? Who knows?

Reality is that greed will spoil the day as easily accessible information will only help the rattlesnake roundup crowd and the persons collecting for the pet trade and the law makers will be too busy helping no one as they will be writing a ticket to the kid that almost wrote the most awesome book ever written.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

But I understand. Sometimes the system is frustrating. As I have said before, I have never been into the hobby to sell stuff. That said, it doesn't mean that I will not in the future. Only that my primary goal has never been to "make money". I am happy if the hobby pays for itself sometime in the future.

Law enforcement is one of our biggest hurdles.

As far as retaining knowledge... I only know that most spots are public knowledge. Most hunting methods are public as well. Best practices for breeding, well I think we can all learn from each other on that one. It is not my strength, that is for sure.

Comments appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

Steve

Interesting thoughts to ponder. What will the future be like... This is my twist... There seems to be a growing trend amongst the next "generation" to have the best of everything right now...instant gratification. Especially in the herp scene since there has never been a time in this hobby like today where there is so much amazing stuff available. All you need is money and lots of it. This is just my opinion but there seems to be a growing lack of appreciation for the time and effort it takes to produce this stuff...whether its years of breeding to produce a designer ball or hours, days and years in the field trying to find an alterna. I like to ask my students at school what they want to be when they grow up and most of them say "rich". They don't care what they do as long as it pays them well. What really scares me is most of my students (high school age) think it's not going to be a problem starting off making 100K a year out of school. Some don't even think they need to go to college to make that kind of money. Scary...huh?

I agree with some of the other posts too regarding older herpers taking the younger ones under their wing so to speak. There was a time when I was a young and eager herper. (now I'm old but still eager...just had to add that) If it wasn't for a few more experienced herpers willing to answer my many stupid questions and encouraging me in this hobby who knows...maybe my passion for herps would have diminished some. I have always felt that knowledge of anything pertaining to things like hobbies and such should be shared especially when others stand to gain from it in a positive way.

The attached pic is my daughter with our first and only double. Both were caught within 50 yards of each other and about 20 minutes apart. I'm trying to foster her appreciation for field herping. Of course finding two early in the evening with only one night to hunt didn't help. She thinks finding Graybands is easy...you just go out and walk around and pick em up! And I wonder where young folks get that "instant" gratification attitude! I need to work on her about that! In the mean time we will cherish the memories! =]

PS - notice the quilt on the bed and furniture in the background? Anyone guess where this pic was shot? Or better yet which room? Even better quess which room I'm writing this from right now? , I'm just waiting for the sun to go down for one last hoorah!

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np

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np

Good comments. I think you are 100 percent on the money about Instant Gratification. I will be the first to admit that I am beyond impatient. I am getting better since getting married 7 years ago... Now with Nathanial here, I am tested everyday but he is amazing.

It takes real patience to hunt Alterna. So many obstacles: Time, Weather, Wardens, Traffic, TIME!!!

For me, it was my first real adventure getting out of the house and hunting West Texas at 19. 15 years later, still an adventure. Maybe the thought of some real adventure will appeal to some of the younger audience.

Thanks Bud and Good Luck this weekend.

Steven Owens

Stu,
you nailed it right on the head. The younger generation has no idea what we have gone through to get were we are.I remember buying my first amel cal king in (87) at a reptile shop and it was $300.00 but I was the [bleep] on my block.

Anyway, nice job on the double man I am still waiting to do that.

Shannon

At 37 years old I'm not new to herps, but I just purchased my first two pairs of alterna. One pair is proven that I will refer to as "generic." I know quite a bit of background on them, but they are not purely a single locale. The other pair are clutchmate River Roads that I purchase from Mitch Allen at Daytona.

That being said, I agree with a lot of the different things mentioned in this thread. If you want to get people really interested and feed their new addiction, welcome them in and stoke their interest. Even if the initial animals they get are "generic." I became an information sponge when I got my first pair and the knowledge I acquired got me into the River Road pair. Now I need to find an unrelated River Road pair to pass up.

I've been hitting the big herp shows in Florida for several years and I must say I think the Ball Python train is slowing down. I may be biased as I really don't like balls, but it seemed that Daytona was overloaded this year and a lot of people were going home with a lot of stock. On the other hand, colubrids seemed to have brisk sales.

Lastly, I've looked at the alterna page, done some google searches and talked to folks who have herped in West Texas (Trumbower, Mitch Allen, Steve Cox and some of my herp buddies here in FL). That information has made me want to do some first hand alterna hunting (new regulations aside). Hopefully enough enthusiasts grab up habitat to make this possible.
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WJS Herps
Brooksville, Fl
Bill & Jennifer Smoot

That you got some RR's. Man that road is tough. Absolutely amazing to hunt, but hard to find Alterna. I have probably 2 hours of video just driving the road. It is super cool driving out to the big hill at dusk, sun in your face, butterfly in the stomach, with the thought... "What is going to be the first snake of the night".

I hope you keep the posts coming.

Best Wishes,

SXO8792

Closing steadily in on 30 I have actually been lucky enough to have grown up with snakes... Currently I have many but acquired my first pair of alterna only year and that has magnified into seventeen animals with plans for further expansion given the right animals and locale. Now this feeds into that 'instant gratification' concept rather well as I have almost become an addict... They are amazing animals all around and I strongly feel that interest in them will never fade... So, I have every intention of posting pics of mine -- unfortunately I don't think they'll compete with some of the amazing shots this forum produces!

Chris

Nothing wrong with having an Alterna-tive addiction. We mention patience when it comes to hunting or securing some of the more difficult localities. Congrats! Sounds like you have the bug.

This is what I am talking about. Someone gives you a Greyband or maybe you buy one, then you get another, then you get a locality animal, then you start reading more and buying all the available literature. Next thing you know you end up with a room full, and your credit card is gets heavy from all the charges from West Texas Vacations.

Post your pics. Not trying to be mean, but what some consider the ugliest Greyband, is better than the best python in my book.

Thanks for your post!

SXO792

This summer I went out to West Texas to hunt graybands for my high school granduation present. It was a blast and will definately be out there as soon as possible again.

Were you staying in Sanderson with your Dad?

Hope you had good luck!

Steven Owens

No I stayed in Terlingua at the Paddle Sack Restraunt/Motel (recently renamed Tivo's Place, great people who run it). Didn't find any alterna and didn't see as many snakes as I would have liked to, but I still had a blast regardless. Got to see that part of Texas for the first time and am definitely hooked. I SHOULD have been in Sanderson, though. I was in God's Contry on the weekend that everybody and their dogs were finding graybands around Sanderson. Can't win them all. Hope to see you all out there REAL soon.

the young man has been baptized. I'm jealous as I've yet to get past DFW as a stopover in-between traveling with the family. LOL. Good stuff everyone.

Jerry Kruse (Cherry bomb -- LMAO)