Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently added a group of Hueco's to my collection.. (my first ever Hueco's) I have another pair, but they just ate so i didn't want to bother them with a photo session..

Sorry about the crappy pix.. I took these with my new camera and they were crystal clear on my computer, but when i upload them to K/S they lose clarity for some reason??

~ Mike Russo

While those are some attractive interesting snakes, they look nothing like Huecos that I have seen. Are you sure of the locale of the adults that produced these animals?

DB

Hmmmmmmmmmmx2 and the xmas a month ago charlie

Hey Doug,

Hope all is well, I got these snakes at a local Petco and the kid that was working there told me that the wholesaler was pretty sure that they were Hueco's... Of course they spelled "Hueco" wrong on the list he showed to me and he thought they were milksnakes... But, i took his word for it anyway!

JOKE OF COURSE!!!

These animals were produced by David Doherty. I am aware of at least 2 other people that post here that got similar looking animals from Dr. Doherty this year..

~ Mike Russo

Many of the huecos pop in captivity with speckles on them, I got one myself.

Lance

-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

The parents of my new Hueco's are F1s from wild caught animals that were collected by Dan Johnson.

I have photo's of the parents here on my computer, but I did not take the pix & I do not have the right to post them here..

~ Mike Russo

MIke,
Dan's 4 wild-caughts are linked to this page www.dan-johnson.net/herp/all_specimens.html

One of the females died without ever producing progeny. One of the males did have some speckling but I think what they are trying to say is that there doesn't "appear" to be anyway those could have be progeny from the three WC snakes in 2 generations. It "looks" like either Dan or Dave slipped a little BG in there. I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm saying that is what "appears" to have happened.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

that not a single one of the dozen or so WC snakes I've seen from there have speckling. For that matter, none of them are really very light either. It seems that Dan found the only three super light speckled alterna in those mountains. The fourth one he found looks like the genuine article though.

Hey Joe,
Surprise! I agree with you 100%. Thats exactly what I was thinking. They have some Black gap blood in there. David must of had one to many margaritas at Momma Crosby's, came home and put a black Gap male in with a Hueco female by mistake!! It could happen. Those can't be pure Hueco's based on all the wild caughts that have been found that look like clones of each other.
There still neat looking mutts though. Just my 2 cents.
BA

Looking at the charts that Joe provided a link for, it appears Dan was producing F1's from 2001 to 2003. I'd check out those pics and see if you can find the matches to your parents and then just post a link to Dan's pics.

Or it's possible Dave produced the parents in 2004 if he in fact did get Dan's originals, in which case Dan's site wouldn't do much good. I personally think they could easily be Hueco's as almost any locality with a little bit of speckling seems to increase dramaticly each generation.

Thanks for the reply Mike.

I can't help but think that maybe Dave got the locale's of his clutches mixed up somehow as these certainly look very BG-ish. Mike, don't get me wrong, they are very attractive snakes, but I will have to respectfully disagree w/ Lance and Aaron on this one. While possibly not out of the realm of probability, I think it a HUGE STRETCH that the animals in the photos could be so drastically different in appearance, at the F2 timeline, than the original w/c's.

The F1 Hueco animal in the photo posted by Lance has much more speckling than any of the w/c that I know of, but it still has an overall Hueco look to it. Just my opinion here, but I just don't see any Hueco characteristics in your animals.

Mike, please take this post in the spirit in which it is meant. My posts about this have nothing to do w/ questioning you or Dave for that matter, but merely are an expressed opinion about some very interesting animals of yours.

Please keep in mind before reading the next statement that I am a strong proponent of breeding locality specific alterna. If progeny that look so drastically different from w/c animals are showing up so quickly, one might ask, what's the point in breeding locale specific animals if one is producing something that no longer resembles in any fashion that which can be found in the wild population of that locale being bred?

DB

I looked at Johnsons WC Huecos and the babies that are showing up as f3 & f4 are pure Huecos based on his original stock. I can see speckling on adults that would be intensified withcaptive breeding of select individuals. Look at Gaps that have been bred over and over for speckling. Almost all the specked Gaps come from one animal that dosen't truly represent the whole gene pool. Alot of Huecos have been caught lately and alot don't look anything like Johson's originals but they apear
to be pure Heuco's as far as I'm concerned, they just may not represent the normal gene pool that is there. Lets face it though thats why we collect to find the unusual alterna.
KC

I'm with you Dougie. I hope we're wrong for Mike's sake but just can't believe those are pure. I bought a female Hueco from dave last year and it didn't look anything like those. Can't believe the genetics would flucuate that much in one year.

Please Please Please do not take this the wrong way. I think Dave D. needs to chime in on this one. That middle Alterna is a gap. I am about 95 percent sure. It looks so much like the ones that you and (lance) already picked up this year.

The hueco's with the speckled necks- Ok some good points have been made on this. I asked lance that this past year. We looked at as many wild caughts as possible. No speckling in the wild. We have purchased 2 cb males so far. Both have had speckling. The first one died. The new one we also purchased from Dave D. Is it possible that the adults loose the speckling? Am I missing somethere here?

Mike - To sum up, please assume positive intent here. The animals you picked up look like 9's and 10s. Very nice. I am sure you paid good money for those and want to make sure you get the correct locality.

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

Hi Steve,

NO offense taken at all!!! I very much appreciate your input on this, as I know that you & Lance purchased some of the same (gap/hueco) animals as i did this year..

I have 2 additional Hueco's from Dave, I will post pictures of them this afternoon.. I am pretty sure they are from the same clutch as your speckled hueco male..

You may be right that David would be the right person to help rectify this situation??

~ Mike Russo

I could very well be wrong. Dave D has a great reputation. If a Hueco really did produce that middle animal then I would definitely be interested seeing photo's of the adults.

Again these are 9's and 10s. Just concerned to make sure you get the local. Congrats... Like I have said before many times. Any of us would pee ourselves if we observed one in the wild that looked like those.

Best Wishes,

Steven

night.very cool. all three caught the night after we were ran out of there.

lots of orange on a couple of them but I don't see much if any speckling.

L8r Shannon

will see if I have the third one in my gallery.

Shannon

Check out the link to this wc Hueco. It has some speckling, I think it is within the realm of possibility that F2's from this snake could "bloom" into really speckled animals. I do agree though those snakes of Mike's are unusual enough to want to verify their lineage.
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue97w0002.html

Yep, I already looked at those.Its not out of the realm to think that some of those could have speckled necks at all.
I think I need another bloody mary.LOL.......
L8r nitz

I have been pretty excited, shaking a little maybe but I never once came close to peeing myself after finding a grayband. This guy was in my light north of loma a few years back, I lost no control of my bodily functions!

Jim

That's good to hear Jim... Especially since we may be in the same car together next year!!!

~ Mike

It will be a rental, and the windows will be open.

Hi Mike. Does that mean you will finally be making your first trip to west Texas??? Brad

Hi Brad, I hope all is well with you!

Yes, now that things are settling down here a bit after baby #3 it looks like I might be able to make out there with Jim D. for the first time next season!

I am really looking forward to meeting some of you guys, see some of the outstanding terrain that i have only seen in books and online, and if i am lucky "observe/photograph" some animals as well!

~ Mike Russo

Excellent Mike. You'll never regret it. BA

motel parking lot.LOL.....

Shannon

Yep, I remember that day very well, 5 years ago, but it could have been a week ago!

Beautiful snake Jim. That one is so nice it almost makes me want to search Val Verde county again after all these years. Of course w/ my luck, if I were to find something back east it would be one of those damn blairs thingies. Lol

DB

are you talking about something like this Doug.Ugly ratio Tower female I collected walking in (09) at 10:37 p.m. and it was dry and 91 degrees at the time.

P.S. I almost shot my first 800 scratch the other night.much harder than a single 300.

L8r Shannon

Something like that, but, as you know, they sure do come much less attractive than the one you posted.

"P.S. I almost shot my first 800 scratch the other night.much harder than a single 300."

L8r Shannon

Congrats on what sounds like a career night for you! I bet that was lots of fun even if you didn't quite get to the magical 800 mark.

I definitely agree w/ you when comaparing an 800 series vs. a 300 game. While I had others in practice sessions, I shot my one and only 800 series that counted, an 809, when I was 18. I quit bowling 14 years later and had seven 300 games that counted and still just that lone 800 series. I sure would have liked to have had at least one more. Keep trying you just may get there yet.

DB

I can't wait to see how this one pans out! I think Dave is about as good as they get for pure locality "stuff". I am glad to see everyone's opinion on this, but eventually I think we will see a wide variety of types and patterns found wild in the Huecos.

I just thought I might add a picture of this Juno Road female I hatched this summer, she looks more Hueco-ey than Mike's, which do look gap ish but I bet his (and Lance and Steve too)are in fact pure Huecos if Dave told him they are. Variety of pattern is what makes the snakes cool!

Are some of you concerned that if the Hueco population shares the same type of variety as say Loma Alta it might loose some of its mystique?

By the way, it dos not matter if the snakes are from the same cut or a mile apart, they are locality for the purposes of this hobby and influenced by human intervention anyway. I have faith in all the parties involved that they are being honest, and that is key right?

Questioning is good, but be prepared to believe it if they are confirmed to be pure.

I agree 100% with you Jim.Dave is as good as they get. If he says they are huecos then they are huecos.He works with all the nice Gaps also but he would have no reason at all to say they were huecos if they weren't.
Here is a nice red bluff that Aaron produced for me a couple years ago.It looks about like a hueco.

Shannon

If they were gaps, of course he would sell them as gaps right?

np

-----
“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

I hope Mike posts the photos of the parents (supposed F1 from WC Huecos)
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

Hi Joe,

David gave me the OK to post his photo's.. Sorry for the delay in posting them... I came home from work sick today & I crashed out for a couple of hours.. I will resize the pix and post them up tonight..

Just to let you know, I already matched up 2 of david's adults with thier coresponding hatchling pics from Dan's site..

~ Mike Russo

just post the parents of your snakes. you already know what I think, so I won't be offering my opinion on the forum. I'm just curious to see the reaction one way or the other.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

With permission from David I am posting these photo's of two of his four adult Hueco breeders..

If you go to Dan's site you will find that these animals match up perfectly with hue00c0103 and hue02c0105.

~ Mike

Here are David's other two adults...

I found several hatchlings on Dan's list that look very similar to the snake in the bottom pic, but have not found an exact match yet..

I am done looking for tonight.. I am sick and feeling really crappy... i am going to bed!

~ Mike Russo

Well looking at these two, one could see where this pair could possibly produce animals that look like the ones you purchased. The only one of the 4 adults pictured that really gives me pause is the one you could not find a match to, the first one in your second posting. Of course maybe you will find that match once you are feeling better. That animal basically shows no typical Hueco traits that I can see at least going by what has been found the last decade or longer, which is no longer a small sampling.

While I have no reason to doubt the integrity of Dave or Dan, that one adult animal just looks funny to me, very atractive, but funny.

For what it's worth, I'm afraid that I am going to stick to my previous opinions dispite the photos of the adults or some of the valued opinions that have been posted previously by others. Since I don't doubt the source, there might have been an honest mixup somehow or god forbid...I, as well as some others, cound just be wrong. DB

I agree 100% with you Doug. There had to be a mixup somewhere along the line. That one adult looks like some kind of Black Gap anertheristic that Dan was the first to produce.
Why hasn't one wild caught Hueco looked anywhere near that snake? HMMMMM. BA

Why hasn't one wild caught Hueco looked anywhere near that snake? HMMMMM. BA

Exactly! I know others, who I have respect for, have posted about this don't agree w/ us Brad, but I just can't see how a few speckles in the neck area of a w/c Hueco animal can produce something that looks like the one adult in question of Dave's.

DB