Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The locality police seem to be working overtime on this one, so I`ll try to shed some light. The Hueco baby that Mike R acquired from me came from a pair of Huecos that I purchased from Dan J about 6 years ago. I actually acquired 2.2 from Dan. Three of these babies were very typical looking. One baby was very unique with a more ornate/speckled pattern. That particular female has produced three clutches for me. Earlier clutches have yielded some babies with mild to moderate speckling. I used a more speckled male with this past clutch, and produced a relatively typical looking group of Hueco babies with one exception. The exception took her mother`s unusual pattern to the extreme. My other pair of Huecos have the more traditional look to them and so do their offspring.
I have known Dan for over 15 years and I completely trust the integrity of his animals. We live relatively close to one another and have traded and sold animals among ourselves for years. Dan was alittle hesitant to part with this particular female because she was so unique looking. Her clutch mates showed some speckling, but she was unique. Dan had no reason to mislead me on the animal`s locality. He could have sold her for just as much regardless of locality. After producing about 16-18 babies from this animal over the past three years, Mike R`s animal was the first to exceed her mother`s unusual pattern. Next year, I can breed her back to my more traditional looking pinstripe male and get more traditional babies or shoot for another unique one by using the more speckled male. Decisions, decisions.... I guess its a nice problem to have.
I don`t know how to post their pics on this site and its too late at night to try to learn. Just for fun, I`ll post them on the alterna classifieds with a silly price. The moderator might remove them, but they should be up for awhile. I hope that this will enable everyone to sleep better.
Cheers,
David D

Dan produced this snake?

Supposedly an F1 from WC Huecos?

He told you it was an F1 from WC Huecos?

You believed him? And then you bought it? ROFL

Forks
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

Yes to all the above. At the time, I hadn`t seen many live Huecos - they were pretty rare in Houston collections. To me, she just seemed cool. For all I knew, this wasn`t all that unique in wild populations since I had only seen a few wc Huecos in my entire life. I truely see no reason why Dan would mislead me on this. Her siblings looked pretty typical as I remember. The one possible error is her F1 status. I thought that she was an F1, but its possible that she was out of F1s. I`ll ask Dan the next time I talk to him - though he may or may not remember after so many years and so many snakes. Dan is currently finishing his studies on crawfish and writing a book on Texas crawfish so he`s pretty busy.
That`s all I`ve got....
David

What is this a photo of? I doesn't look like a Hueco to me.

Here are links to all clutches of Hueces I produced from 2000 to 2003. I produced additional clutch(es) in 2004, but didn't document them, but I don't remember anything different coming from them.

http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue0001_photo_exhibit.html
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue0101_photo_exhibit.html
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue0201_photo_exhibit.html
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue0301_photo_exhibit.html
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue0302_photo_exhibit.html
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue0303_photo_exhibit.html

Look at clutch 0101. Both parents have slight neck speckling. One of the offspring is quite speckled. Photos of the adults are lighter than in real life. I photographed these with film and the developing never worked out well.

Of Mike's photos, 1 and 3 look consistent with this bloodline. The second one looks different from anything I've seen. But strange things do occasionally hatch out especially when breeding related animals.

--Dan

What is this a photo of? I doesn't look like a Hueco to me.

If you read Dave's reply, HE says it's an F1 or F2 Hueco he bought from YOU.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

I purchased my pair of Huecos from you in 2004. Do you have ANY pictures at all from the '04 clutch(es)? I would like to at least track down the parents of mine, siblings would be a bonus. Knowing who they went to would be even better.

Here are some photos of the pair I got from you:

Recent photos of them:

Here they are again from '05:

My email is alexba(at)earthlink(dot)net

Thanks for any help you can provide,

Brad Alexander

Hey Brad,

Nice photos and nice snakes! If I have photos they are long lost. I was getting burnt out with the business at that time.

--Dan

Bummer, but that's what I had suspected. What about the parents? Might you recall from your website who the parents were?

Best regards,

Brad

I spent some time digging around my web page to see if I could find the snake and was successful. It's a black gap and here's the link:
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/bgp03c0302.html. It's a mystery how it turned into a Hueco...

Hi Dan,

First off thank you very much for taking the time to track down the photo of the mystery female that we now know is a Black Gap..

Obviously this was not the answer I was hoping to hear since I just purchased 2.2 "hueco" hatchlings from Dave. But, it's better than not knowing the correct locals on the animals that I purchased to raise up and eventually breed.

I also want it to be known that when I originally posted the photo's of my new "huecos" it was certainly NOT my intention to expose possible misrepresentation or cause unnecessary grief to anyone involved... I was more hoping to hear "Hey nice snakes, congrat's" But, in this case my lack of experience with Hueco's seems to have jumped up and bite me in the a*s.

As you can imagine I am hoping that Dave and i will be able to rectify this issue, and that I am just not left with the distinction of being the proud new owner of quite possibly the most expensive group of "generic" alterna in the country..

Again, thanks for your time!

~ Mike Russo

Well, it looks like there was a mistake and I made it! What can I say? How I spent the last 4 years raising this snake under the assumption that it was a Hueco is a mystery to me. Dan and I spoke on the phone 30 minutes ago. As I`ve stated before, he had no reason to mislead me on the locality and I had no reason to mislead myself. Evidently, we just had a mis-communication in his snake room in 2003. For those that never visited Dan`s snake room in its prime, it was quite impressive and somewhat overwhelming. I had not seen enough Huecos to know that this one was too atypical to likely be a Hueco. She came home with me as a "Hueco", but evidently, she`s a Black Gap.
Anyways, she produced a clutch last year, one this year and double-clutched again this year. Her most recent clutch only yielded 3 live babies and I still have 2 of them. I believe that I`ve sold about 8 or 9 "mutts" from her over the last two years - I still have 3 holdbacks from last year, and a couple died. If you acquired a suspicious Hueco from me, please contact me and we`ll work something out. What else can I do?
Though this has been somewhat of an embarrassment, at least I now know her true locality. If Mike R hadn`t posted her offspring`s pic, I would have blissfully continued to treat her as a Hueco. Dan confirms that my other 3 adult Huecos are the real deal.
Sorry to all. It was an honest mistake.
David

I believe you 100% that it was an honest mistake Dave.

Just let me know if he is tied to the mix up... BTW, I have that adult female WC Hueco and would like to lock her up to a male next year..

Thanks

Lance

WC Female:

Captive male that I want to verify:

-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Lance
Great looking snake you got there. Must have come from the highest quality breeder!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, that one did come out of the Hueco/BG female in question, which makes her a really cool mutt. Please email me and we`ll work something out that is fair to you. Sorry for the mix up. Dan and I both feel bad about this.

Will do...

Thanks, I know it was an accident and you are making every effort to fix it..

Lance
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Well handled Dave. I wouldn't call the offspring mutts though.

Its all about selective breeding of f1 f2 f3 f4.
I agree it might not represent the gene pool of Hueco's in the
wild. But I think we should watch out questioning long time alterna breeders. Thanks Dave for you imput.
KC

Mike has 700 good reasons to question the locality. That snake is not pure Hueco, Dave and Dan both know it.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

Joe,
I don't know if either one of them "know it" for sure as it could of been an unintentional mistake. We've both known those guys for decades and their integrity is top shelf. However I do agree with you that it sure looks like some Black Gap influence going on. They're still really nice pure alterna, just quite possibly not pure locality. I've always said Denny Miller's mutt [black gap/xmas] is the best looking alterna I've ever seen. BA

I see nothing wrong with us questioning, it's not even about integrity. Dan and Dave are top noch. If the snake is a "hueco" with verbal documentation then that is what it is nothing more and nothing less. Verbal documentation is subject to interpretation and error and the locality data is is only - well "so good".

A hueco with photograhic proof back to wild caught adults is rock solid 100% documented and understood.

Jim

This is an honest question with no ill intent. What would consitute "photographic" proof back to wild caught adults. If people don't believe "verbal" documentation, why would they believe pics. It seems like in this discussion someone would just say, "There is no way that is a picture of the actual parents of that animal."

After many years of keeping many types of snake, I've started to get the alterna bug. I just love the locale info, and that they are native to the U.S. So I ask this question honestly, if not only to help me with my own documentation as I go forward. I tend to believe most verbal info when people say they know the origins, other than written records, how else can you really prove anything beyond doubt.

Nothing about this locality question can be "proven" beyond doubt. It ultimately must come down to the individual veracity and integrity of the person producing the animals. Written records, photos, etc. can all be falsified with varying degrees of ease.

All involved in this controversy have a reputation in the hobby that is above reproach. I for one would be shocked to the core if there turned out to be deliberate misrepresentation of these animals.

Conversely, anyone with a large collection can see how an honest mistake in pairing could be made. Looking at that one heavily speckled animal, it's hard to accept that something untoward hasn't occurred. It practically screams"Black Gap"!

-----
Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

So what do you think now Keith? Yes it was an honest mistake but it still doesn't hurt to question "long time breeders" as you accused Joe, Doug and I of doing. Nobody's perfect. BA

I think its a bummer that they got mixed up and a couple years of breeding went by already with animals out there.
I think Dan Johnson had the best record keeping with pics on the alterna and I think we should all model that so mistakes as big as this won't happen again.
KC

The picture records are really what saved the day here!

I agree 100% BA

David,
Guess the "alterna police" as you referred to Joe, me and Doug were correct! Thanks for the new moniker. Brad

Yes Brad,
You were right and I was wrong. Its not even the first mistake that I`ve made and it may not be the last. Also, your Kansas Jayhawks are good and my Aggies suck. Maybe I`ll catch a three headed pied alterna next year and this will all be forgotten.....

Hey Dave,

been reading this thread on the locale saga between several fellas including M Russo -- a local pal who's a heck of a nice guy. Interesting threaad to say the least. I'm curious about your site, as it offers very little viewing of your breeders. Any way to see more? I'm interested in Black Gaps --- can i arrange for something in 2008? And what's the price tags on 'em as well -- I know there is a range based upon outward appearance. Thanks much.

JERRY KRUSE

Jerry,
I`m not sure that this forum is set up for selling things. Yes, I have lots of cool Blacks Gaps, and one new breeder BG(haha), but please email for for more specifics. Thanks,
David

I'll attest that David has the best Gaps in the hobby. He also just "aquired" a new hot looking adult female! LOL! BA

I agree.. Dave did just aquire a SMOKIN HOT Black Gap Female.. I wish i could find that kind of gem in my herp room for sure! I only hope to be able to get some of her offspring next season!!

~ Mike Russo

Yes, my "new" BG female is actually het for anery and probable het for hypo according to Dan`s documentation. This is wonderful for me. I have an adult male ghost BG (from Dan) that I have been in desperate need of compatable females for. It turns out, there was one right under my nose all this time and I didn`t realize it. I cringe at the thought of squandering three clutches out of my "new BG female" when I could have used her to produce anerys, hypos, ghosts..... Oh well, there`s always next year......