Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright, I'm about to get frustrated!!!!

Long story short, Snake is going on 3 weeks... no feed, refusing everything..... lost 25 grams in those three weeks.... no visible signs on RI, scale rot, or any other fungal/respiratory ick.....

Humidity and heat are just right.. snake has been hanging out on cold side for about a week... not in his hide, but wedged between the glass of the tank and his water dish... no signs of him doing really anything... It doesn't look like he has been moving a lot.. and I know he's a real big mover at night.... he has started to hiss when I go to get him out.... but he's not shedding.... AGGGRRRAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

If anyone has an suggestions... please let me know. My vet (which I also work for) has suggested I take home some carnivore care and syringe feed him..... but I just don't know if that would be the right step to take here... I have been offering him food about every 3rd day... and all he wants to do is get out of the feeding tub..........

If snakes really ARE this hard to take care of... I sure as hell wasn't prepared for it......

On the Frustrated Side of Iowa
Teri

I should correct something.. I've been offering him food every 3rd day since he's gone two weeks without feed, but now it's goin on 3 weeks....

He's pretty regular in wanting to feed every other friday... Soooo.. I dunno...

First , how old and big is it ? Male or female ? I am a big fan of feeding tubs but all will not feed this way , if he has been feeding this way before , you still might try feeding in its cage just to get him back on track then go back to the tube . David

Hi david..
I was told the snake will be 2 years old in June. It is a male. he's about 433g and roughly 24'' long. He has always been fed in a separate tub, even before I got him. I would really not like to feed him in his tank, since I have a toddler who will most likely be helping take care of him in a few years..... I don't want to get the snake in the habit if eating in his tank.

Thanks!

It has been my experience with males at 2 yr. tend to go off feed for some reason even more so than others ,I had a 2.5 yr. male go off for 8.5months , but most don’t go that long and I can understand about not wonting to feed in the cage ,and I’m not saying to switch for good ,just to see if it will trigger him to start feeding again ,then go back to the tube feeding . David

David,
I know it is only a spelling error. Since she mentioned the vet wanted to syringe feed or "tube feed" the snake she might misunderstand your post. I know you meant for her to feed in the tub, not to tube feed the snake, I hope she gets the right message.
Mike

Yes , Thanks Mike . David

3 weeks is nothing to worry about yet. There are more specific questions though. What food items are you offering? How small or large is the snake? are you feeding in the mornings or at night? Are you feeding live or dead?

If its a younger snake and you are trying frozen/thawed, I would offer a live medium sized mouse at night. Drop it in and leave it alone for a few minutes. Leave the room if you need to, let the snake become secure with situation and go hunt like it was designed to do. If its a larger snake I would do the same thing, but with a medium rat. Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot for your advice... i have tried everything... I am not really concerned about the length of time really, but more that he's LOSING weight.... I am offering him what he has been used to eating, which is small rats.. I have tried mice, and he still doesn't want anything to do with them. He has always been fed live, I offered him a re-killed rat, I've taken rats back to the pet shop and gotten a brown one, just to see if that made a difference... i always have fed him right before I'm ready to go to bed, when I notice he's most active..... this has seemed to work in the past... i just dunno though....

as long as he's still thick, he'll be fine. 25 grams isn't a big deal unless the snake is only 100 grams, which I'm sure he's not. If he stops drinking water and starts getting thin then I'd worry about it. For now, just keep doing what you have been doing.

Try waiting a week or so before offering again. Maybe he is just stressed. Most of mine have been off feed for the past month. Most of my big ones that is, the ones over 1200grams. My males are breeding, they are not eating as much.
You never said how many grams your snake is total. My young snakes, born around August 07, are eating at least one every week or two weeks. But I have two that have quite eating for a month. But these two young ones are also the ones that pounded rat pups-smalls for the first 4 months. Same age as the rest, just alot bigger from starting out better. Then I have one older female that is around 1300 grams, that only eats 6 months of the year. I assume that is why she is so small, I would guess 7-10 years old. Still laid a good 5 egg clutch though.
I would lay off trying so often. As long as it is still solid, not like a razor back, he/she should be alright. Good luck.

you're freaking about 2-3 weeks??????? just imagine 4 or 6 months. just relax, your stress is probably stressing out the snake even more. As long as it has fresh water, let the snake be for a week or so then try to feed. In time when the snake is ready it will eat. Relax in the meantime!

Pitoon

"If snakes really ARE this hard to take care of... I sure as hell wasn't prepared for it......"

They really are not that hard to take care of...you just happened to pick a snake that fasts and that, in my opinion, IS one of the hardest aspects of snake keeping to get a handle on. The first couple of fasts that I experienced drove me crazy. I tried everything in the book to get the snake to eat and nothing. Then, one day, I offered just a plain old f/t rat and wham, the snake ate. It had decided that it was time again. I had one big adult female that would eat 3-4 times per year...no more.

I agree with what the others have posted, keep an eye on body condition, offer food less often and relax and enjoy the clean cage. Definitely don't take to syringe feeding just yet.

Hope this helps.

Rob

You sound like this is your first snake. Give some details about your temps, humidity, husbandry, size tank, substrate, ect. You may have gotten some bad information from somewhere. Let's make sure you are doing this right. Second, putting a rat in every 3 days has probally got your snake REALLY stressed out. You need to pick one day of the week to feed. If he doesn't eat that day he doesn't get offered until that same day the next week. Keep him on a feeding schedule. This will eliminate some stress. Also, don't handle him a lot until he starts back eating. Prepare yourself for long periods of fasting, especially when he gets older.
Link

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I'm not sure if this is for me or the original poster but I've been keeping snakes for about 15 years and all of my snakes are currently eating.....LOL!

Rob

>>You sound like this is your first snake. Give some details about your temps, humidity, husbandry, size tank, substrate, ect. You may have gotten some bad information from somewhere. Let's make sure you are doing this right. Second, putting a rat in every 3 days has probally got your snake REALLY stressed out. You need to pick one day of the week to feed. If he doesn't eat that day he doesn't get offered until that same day the next week. Keep him on a feeding schedule. This will eliminate some stress. Also, don't handle him a lot until he starts back eating. Prepare yourself for long periods of fasting, especially when he gets older.
>>Link
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Was for the original poster...my bad.
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I know I wrote a reply to a post farther down, but I am going to say, for those of you who are trying to educate me, I am sooo relieved that I have a support system here! I do want to expand my collection to a couple more BP's in the future, but not until i get this one under my thumb!
Thanks so much for the kind words of encouragement, I know I can ALWAYS come here for any questions I have..... You guys are the BEST!!!

Teri
(PS Read the newest reply i have with the picture to find out what I have said about everyone's suggestions.....)

Try feeding different color rodents.I have had my male ball for 2 years now. He will not eat male rats or black rats. He loves the light clored females though. And 3 weeks is not a long time to go without food. He stopped eating in mid Nov. and just ate again about 2 weeks ago. He lost a little weight but nothing to worry about. My brother had one get lost in his house for over 6 months. We almost gave up on finding him. When he did emerge he was severly underweight but still active. He started eating again and has not stopped. He is now a 4 1/2' male. So don't worry.

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www.rainforest-boas.com

If you own a Ball Python, get used to it. I have one that fasts regularly for 8 months of the year. All of mine fast at some point in the year and the range is anywhere from 1-2 months to 8 months.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Teri
Take a deep breath and try to de-stress yourself, then do the same for your snake. Snakes are most vulnerable when they are feeding and must feel secure to feed. I believe you should give the snake a dark, quiet area of the house,keep temps and humidity correct,and keep handling to a minimum. Give it fresh water two or three times a wk. and offer food once a wk. Probably within two or three wks it will relax and start to feed.
My own collection had finaly begun to feed agressivly so I let a friend who had been wanting to bring his boys over on a feeding day bring them last night, the boys were well behaved, but just a little extra light and movement and nearly half my collection didn't eat, it just doesn't take much to make them feel uncomfortable.
I hope your snake eats soon, for your sake as much as for your snakes. CM

Sounds like a classic case of stress to me.

First let us know what your cage set up is - it's measurements (temps humidity, etc.) where it's located, etc. etc. Perhaps we can figure out what needs to be changed in order to help him feel more secure.

Second - leave him alone - don't try to play with him, don't try to feed him - don't weigh him - don't fret over him - just let him chill. For a week to 10 days at least.

Now after you've got everything set up perfect, and you've let him chill for a week or so - give him a small meal and see how he does.

DO NOT - try to force feed him - do not stress him out further.

And please remember if you want to keep balls - be prepared that in the future he will likely go off feed for at least 3 months of the year some will go off feed for as many as 6 or more it's not a big deal - its not something you can avoid - it will happen - if you can't deal with it calmly then perhaps you need to consider another species.

Good luck!
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I've got "Oliver" in a 20 L with a screen top. I have a moon glo lamp on the warm side, and a towel draped over the cold side to help hold the humidity. He's got a large water dish on the cold side, and a large half log hidden under some fake plants on the warm side. There is a UTH under his hide. He's on coconut fibers for substrate. Heat is between 85* and 89* and humidity is normally around 55%-60%. I have him in a room (office) that we don't really use that often. I get dressed in this room everyday (we don't have enough closet space in the MBR to hold my clothes so I have put them in the office. But that has been the most activity he gets on a daily basis. I do keep that door closed, one to keep my toddler from going in there, because he does like to watch the snake, and two I have two large dogs so... less activity is best. I do believe that he likes colored rats versus white ones... and maybe he has a fetish about females... now that I do think about it, i have only gotten female rats for him, but I have been trying to feed him a male... who'da thunk it..

The only thing I can think of as far as stress is concerned is, about a week ago I did some spring cleaning in that room where his tank got completely dismantled and cleaned.. What I find is strange though, is that he's normally hiding in his log where he's not seen, during the day.... but for the last week or so (even before I cleaned his cage) he's been curled up in a ball, wedged in between the glass of the tank and the water bowl... Not normal behavior for him, and if he is stressed out, you'd think he'd HIDE!

I had been trying to feed him every other friday. Great time cause I get paid and i can just pick up a rat on my way home from work. Tomorrow would be 3 weeks no feed for him... I'll go ahead and give him another week, if you guys think he'll be okay, and try to feed him next friday. In the mean time, I'll leave him alone, I'll prolly change his water today, that way I don't need to change it until Monday or so...

Let me know what else I can do.

Teri

PS, I know that some of you are probably tired of hearing about new snake owners not being able to handle their snakes properly.... instead of telling us to get over it and get used to the fact that BP's are as picky as they are... How about educating us so we can learn how to care for them properly and the snake ends up being happy and healthy... I am completely open to learning anything and everything I need to learn about the care and husbandry of BP's.... I really don't need someone telling me to get over it.... I want a happy, healthy snake as a pet... and that's all I am wanting to accomplish by asking for the advice here... so I'm very kindly asking, if you don't want to give worth while advice, then please keep your comments to yourself.... the snake is the one that is going to benefit here....

Terri,

I actually think that, for the most part, you have gotten very helpful advice. Particularly in this case since fasting is an issue that you just have to learn to accept. Without trying to put words in anyone's mouth I think that is all that anyone was trying to say. I'm not saying it is easy to learn to accept the fasting (as I said, I think fasting is one of the hardest aspects of snake keeping to understand and come to grips with) but it is something that will happen consistently. Over time, you will probably realize a pattern and be able to say, "oh, it is October (or whatever month), Oliver is not going to eat again until January." When my animals begin fasting I usually offer food on their regular schedule for about the next three meals just to confirm that it is really is fasting time and then I reduce to about once a month or six weeks until they resume eating (this is for healthy snakes of reasonable size).

As for your husbandry, it sounds pretty good to me although, while I keep a couple of balls, I have much more experience with other species. I do think that sometimes we get lost in the specifics. For example, I could not even begin to tell you what my enclosure humidity is for any of my animals. Not that that is good or bad, it just works for me. Make sure you have a good thermal gradient with nice tight dark hides on both ends, keep the stress levels down as you have been, keep an eye on body condition and I think you should be OK.

If you have any other questions, keep posting, I am sure you will continue to get help. I hope this has somehow been helpful. Good luck and keep us posted.

Rob

P.S. - One thought after rereading your post: if he is spending all of his time wedged between water dish and glass on the cool side, perhaps he is too warm in his warm hide spot and the absence of hide spot on the cool side has gotten him stressed. Just a thought. As I said, a good thermal gradient and a couple of hides could be key. That way Oliver can choose his temp and stay hidden. Also, how big is Oliver? That will help with determining how long is too long for him to fast.

Oliver is about 24'' long, weighs 433g. Im going to have to do some configuring here, his tank is really not big enough to put two hides in here... but I may have to for right now...

I wasn't saying that I didnt' see the reality of getting used to fasting... I know I need to, but right now, he came off of a 4 month fast in Feb... I thought they only fasted in the winter?? This is why I am confused! Also, he's not a big fat fully grown adult yet... he's still very small.

I dunno though.

Good info Terri, here are a couple of suggestions based on the picture and the info:

1. I would not expect a seasonal fast from an animal that size so I would definitely agree with the consensus that stress is the likely cause.

2. From what I can see, Oliver is in no way thin so no need to worry yet.

3. I would consider using a different style hide box (read Robyn's thoughts on hide boxes on the Pro Exotics website, they are right on the money and entertaining to boot) and adding one to the cool side. Moving the water dish to the middle of the enclosure would give you the room and may help increase humidity by having it closer to your heat source. Another option with hide spots that I have used in the past is a long section of pvc half pipe. It should be small enough so that the snake can feel it around him but it can be almost as long as the enclosure thus giving Oliver a chance to choose temps along a gradient while staying hidden. It is the same idea as a warm and cool side hide with even more choice for the snake.

4. I know the above suggestions don't sound very natural looking (I am assuming that you are going for a naturalistic look based on the picture) but I think we need to get Oliver feeding regularly and then we can work on a naturalistic vivarium.

These are just some thoughts. I hope you find them helpful. Keep the questions coming.

Rob

>>Oliver is about 24'' long, weighs 433g. Im going to have to do some configuring here, his tank is really not big enough to put two hides in here... but I may have to for right now...
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>>I wasn't saying that I didnt' see the reality of getting used to fasting... I know I need to, but right now, he came off of a 4 month fast in Feb... I thought they only fasted in the winter?? This is why I am confused! Also, he's not a big fat fully grown adult yet... he's still very small.
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>>I dunno though.
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Well, natural is out the window right now anyway.... What if I went to menards and got some PVC piping, probably 6'' in diameter... i can have my grandfather cut it in half for me. I was thinking maybe just get a pipe for the entire length of the tank, and then cutting a hole, just big enough for him to get in and out, that way, like you said, he's got adequate hide for both the warm and cool side... I'll have to get a smaller water dish, but it's no big deal. for right now, I have an extra log hide that I'll put in there on the cool side, so at least he has a safe place to hide... What would you think If I taped some dark paper to the outside of the tank, so he can't see out and he feels that much more secure?

I would have never thought that his lack of eating is stress related... gosh, I'm learning so much!!

Teri

Hi there, After the reply I sent I went ahead and added a extra hide to the cool side, moved his water dish to the middle and took the opportunity to do a little bit of cleanup.

The log hides are going to be temp. right now since we are under a severe thunderstorm watch and i really don't want to take my toddler to the hardware store in the weather we're facing, SO, two log hides, one on each side, water bowl in the middle. I took those plants and covered part of the water dish so he'd have more places to hide while drinking or moving about...

I started to read that BP's love tight, cramped spaces... which I didnt' know before so, I'm glad to have gotten a lot of great info... his cage looks cluttered and cramped (which drives me nuts, but i'll get used to it.) when I put oliver back, he headed right for the hide on the cool side and he's been in there ever since... poor baby, I feel so bad for him.. hopefully this will start to make him feel better...

Thanks for all the info, and if you have anything else to suggest, let me know!!

Teri

Ok here is what I am seeing right off:

1. the log hide - way wrong and too big. See your little guy balled up in the corner - go through your house see if you have a small box about that size - plastic tupperware or something of that nature - and cut an entry hole - or you can stuff a bunch of newspaper inside the log hide and cover it with a piece of newspaper to make it nice and dark and tight fitting.

2. How are you measuring your temps? I see a little stick on doohickey in the absolute worse place to be taking readings from - so I hope that is not what you are going by? If so - buy yourself a temp gun and measure temps at the snakes level (ground).

3. You have an UTH but three inches of substrate over it - it's probably not providing the proper heating - take the substrate down a few inches - or better yet take it out for the time being and replace it with newspaper. Remember your heating elements should be on a thermostat.

4. Remove the light and cover the whole cage top with plexiglass or foil or wood to hold in heat and humidity - towels aren't really that helpful - I do wish people would stop suggesting them. Balls don't need a light source and lights dry out tanks - if you need additional heating add UTH, flexwatt or run some heat cable under your substrate.

5. Moving the water bowl closer to the heat in hope of raising the temperature isn't advisable - warm water breeds harmful bacteria - I do wish people would stop suggesting that.

I realize with the weather being what it is you don't feel like running your toddler around town - until you do - I would suggest at least create a small dark tight hide over the warm spot and I'll bet that will do the trick. And then leave him be.

Good luck!
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Tosha
JET Pythons

i might have missed it, but i don't see any specific setup details posted nearby that would actually give a keeper here much of a chance to help.

without specific details, it is all just a shot in the dark.

maybe it won't eat because it shares a cage with 6 puppies. as good a guess as any : )

you did mention one detail that points to classic stress though. squeezing between the tank and water bowl. the snake doesn't do that because it loves glass, it does that to try and hide. it is trying to tell you that it needs a better hide spot. the current ones (if there are any) are not providing the security that it needs. squeezing to the glass is not visually secure, but it is tight, and it FEELS secure, and that is something.

take a look at your hidespots (and other sources of stress, while you are at it) and see how you can improve. a secure, stress free snake won't fast itself into weight loss. the snake is telling you something. listen.

best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I'll have to look at this hide spots and make sure it's secure enough for him, Maybe i'll have to get something more secure...

Oh, and I only have 2 dogs... lol not 6!

First off, ball pythons are a bit frustrating in their eating habits to say the least, so I share your frustration. Is this a wild caught? They are even more difficult at times.

The snakes behavior is telling you something as well. His wedging himself between the glass and the water dish could be telling you two different things, 1) that the hide is not what the snake considers as secure and 2) that he is trying to conserve energy by selecting lower temps on the cooler side of the cage.

For the first one, half logs may look nice, but they probably do not provide the snake with a sense of security. I have found that when shy or poor feeding snakes are given a hide where they feel secure they will be much more anxious to eat. You may try a terra cotta plant saucer with a hole out of the side for entry. My snakes usually like to feed from their hide areas. Another problem is removing your snake for feeding. This will only make the issue more complecated if it is a security issue. You are ripping him from his secure spot to put him in an unfamiliar area and then throwing a rodent in there too. Too much stress from the snakes point of view.

Second is a bit easier if that is the prob. Ball pythons stop eating, sometimes for months at a time. If this is the case, your snake may be trying to conserve energy by sitting on the cool side of the cage. If he were to choose the hot side and not eat, he would lose even more weight.

My money is on the security issue. Try giving him a more secure hide and feeding in the enclosure. Good luck,
Justin
AAR

Hi justin.. I completely understand why you say to try to feed in the tank... my only issue with that is, I have a son who will most likely be helping take care of this snake in a few years...... I really don't want to get in the habit of feeding him in his tank, for the reasons of safety.

I do agree that I may have to get a better hide, it's getting to be spring time so I may be able to find some broken clay pots at kmart that they'll sell me for cheap...

Thanks for the informative advice!!

Teri

i don't know of any valid "safety" concern for not feeding in the tank...

clay pot bases (you want the bases, not the actual pots) are already cheap, just a few bucks. a quick SMACK on the side lip with a hammer and you have yourself a great hidespot. a nice heavy, low to the ground, and if properly sized, TIGHT hidespot, which is the goal.

from your picture, exposure and lack of hiding in that setup is definitely a concern. there is much more that you could do. and there is plenty of space for more hidespots.

if you put the snake's mental and physical health needs ahead of your need for a pretty setup, a few sheets of crumpled newspaper would increase the visual security of that setup 300% instantly. just put in some loosely crumpled sheets, which allow for the snake to crawl under and around, without being visually exposed to predators, which is the main fear.

a quick newspaper fix will give some instant and easy stress relief, and give you some time to get some better hidespots that meet both the snake's need, and your desire for an appealing look.

check out our FAQ at our site, there is lots of info there, including hide spot specific FAQs, as well as feeding in the cage FAQs.

best of luck.
PE Hidespot theory and application FAQ

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I feed all 45 of my Ball Pythons in their tubs. They have NEVER tried to go after me on a non-feeding day. They recognize a routine, especially when that routine is accompanied by a specific smell(ie: prey such as mouse or rat).

Since he's so small, I would put him in a 15qt tub, one hide, 1 small water bowl, get a DIGITAL thermometer, and leave him alone for a week or two. Temps should be 92-94 on warm side and 82-84 cool side, 24/7. No night drops. MAKE SURE of those temperatures.

After you have left him alone, except for changing water, for 1-2 weeks, try to feed. Pre-Scent the room for 20-30 minutes by placing the mouse or rat in a cage(with food and water) next to the snake's enclosure. Turn the light off so the snake knows what is going to happen. After you see the snake lurking(ie putting his head out of the hide, flicking his tongue, etc), drop the mouse/rat in on the opposite side that the snake is at, turn off the light and back away. You can watch with a low light flashlight, but do not shine it at the snake.

Also, you may try a mouse instead of a rat. Some are just mousers, and regardless of what people may say, there is no difference in feeding either. Since there hasn't been any studies on the nutritional requirements of Ball Pythons, it's all moot anyway. It's all in what the snake will eat on a consistent basis. All of mine, even adult females, are on mice, and they thrive like there's no tomorrow.
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD),1.0 Black Pastel,1.0 Enchi,1.0 Yellow Hypo,0.1 100% het Butterscotch Hypo,3.24 Normals,1.1 Spider,1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB),1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye),1.0 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring),0.1 Classic Jungle(RIP K..),1.3 66% Poss Het VPI Axanthic, 1.1 Poss Het VPI Snow,1.0 100% het Genetic Stripe

Leave the poor thing alone for a week. Then introduce a live hopper mouse at night and leave the lights off. Don't bug it while it's eating.

Don't hold it for a while... it needs to settle in!
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