Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Which one do you use?
Lately I've been seeing a lot of ball python breeders incubating their eggs sitting on a plastic grid with wet perlite underneath. However, most big breeders still seem to be using the traditional 2:1 vermiculite/perlite ratio and burying their eggs halfway up in the substrate. I used the traditional method last year and it worked perfectly fine, but I was wondering what the pros and cons of the two methods are? Has anyone had any major problems with one or the other?

I bought everything for the plastic grid method this year and was all set up but when the eggs were laid I chickened out and went with the old method. Some of the eggs were stuck together and there was no way I could set them on the grid without them being at an awkward angle (different from the angle the mother had laid them). However, since vermiculite doesn't hold heat well, I wonder what effect the differential temperatures (top vs. bottom) has on the eggs?
Any observations or advice??

Thanks,
~kasey

I like Hatch right , I have used it for 2 years now and haven’t lost a egg yet !! This will be my 3rd year with it and could not be happier . David

You don't have to worry about eggs being at wierd angles or sitting different when they were laid. Just set the clutch on the egg crate, set it, and forget it. People put way too much thought into incubation, and that fact will usually cause them to either not be as successful or fail miserably. I learned one to stop messing with eggs when I dropped a container of 50 Leopard Gecko eggs; and yes, they do bounce.

With the egg crate, it simplifies everything immensely. No need to worry about too much water because they don't actually touch anything. I always separate the eggs so they all lay flat on the grid. It seems intimidating, but you just have to take your time and very carefully peel them off. It makes those 60 days so much less stressful. I'll never use "dirt" substrate again. Although this year I'm using a bag of Hatch Rite as my medium (only expecting 2 clutches) instead of perlite, because I have it left over from last year. I'll just put it in the bottom and saturate it the same way as with perlite. Cause hey, what's the difference? The eggs will never know cause they'll be maxin and relaxin comfortably, well out of harm's way.

I use egg crate, a 50/50 mix, a little Press N Seal in 6/12 quart -- DONE. I don't worry about or open them until last 10 days. Take off Press N Seal, wait until first one pips -- cut the rest. I LOVE egg crate method. This being said, I did cut my first clutch at 48 days because I HAD to see what was inside. I'm glad I did!!!!
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Bill Buchman

>>With the egg crate, it simplifies everything immensely. No need to worry about too much water because they don't actually touch anything. I always separate the eggs so they all lay flat on the grid. It seems intimidating, but you just have to take your time and very carefully peel them off. It makes those 60 days so much less stressful. I'll never use "dirt" substrate again. Although this year I'm using a bag of Hatch Rite as my medium (only expecting 2 clutches) instead of perlite, because I have it left over from last year. I'll just put it in the bottom and saturate it the same way as with perlite. Cause hey, what's the difference? The eggs will never know cause they'll be maxin and relaxin comfortably, well out of harm's way.

Yeah that's the same reason i do the no-sub method..They never get to wet,yet there is always humidity...Totally hands free until hatch day,since there is no need to add water midway through.(There just isn't enough water in a verm mix to make it to the end,without the need to replenish it...and potentially overdo it.)

The only benefit to perlite with the method is that it floats.Giving you a semi-dry surface so that the grid doesn't sink into it.
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Charles Glaspie

I figured I'd at least try the substrate less method this season - got all the stuff - but I don't know - I'm one of them if it ain't broke why fix it kinda people. I seem to do pretty good with the Verm/Perl mix.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I agree Tosha, if it works for you -- keep it!. As a breeder entering my first breeding season I needed to chose one method. The only incubating factor I was stressing over was molding eggs from having a bad wet mix. I took that stresser out and egg-hatching life is good!
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Bill Buchman

Mainly because everyone makes it out to be a huge gamble mixing vermiculite. Put your container (I use 12qt tubs for bp eggs) on a scale and zero it. Put 500g of vermiculite in it and zero. Add 500g water and mix very well. Test the mixture it should clump together without water squeezing out and break apart fairly easily (you may need to add a little more water depending on how much humidity the vermiculite has absorbed or how dry it is). Next remove the container and zero the scale. Now weigh the container and mark down the weight. That weight is what you shoot for every week to 2 weeks when you do your egg care. Now bury your eggs about half way up place lid on and put container in warmed incubator. Perform your egg care every week to 2 weeks by removing container and taking the eggs out and place on soft substance (I use diamond fresh or carefresh) and weigh container. Add however much water is needed to reach original weight of container and replace eggs. It is sooooo simple it's rediculous. I really don't understand how anyone can loose an egg from the substrate being too wet with ball python eggs. The no-substrate method may have a place with more moisture sensitive eggs like chondro's but with bp eggs I'll stick to what has hatched out hundreds of babies for me and ten's of thousands for other breeders.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Josh,
That sounds like a lot of effort. With the no substrate method all you need to do is pour water in the bottom. As long as it doesn't get deep enough to rise above the grate, you are good. Even if it gets a little low. I have hatched 10,000 or more pythons, most burmese with the vermiculite and never went to as much effort as you are doing. But the no substrate method is a lot easier.

On a side note, I have been wanting to ask you for some vanilla combo pictures, especially vanilla-spider. I'll start another thread later, or you can if you'd like.

Thanks Mike

Mike it honestly takes me just a couple minutes to set-up eggs in vermiculite and the routine egg care maybe a minute or so at the most (no I don't weigh every clutch to see how much water to add, I've set-up enough eggs to know how moist it needs to be but threw in that step for those that have little experience). The thing I like is that I have absolutely no chance of having an egg roll once it's set-up unlike the no-substrate method in which I have heard of people loosing very expensive clutches due to the eggs rolling on the grate. We all have our preferences and I really do not like the no-substrate method. I bought all the stuff for it and set-up one test box and that was it, never put the first egg in it.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Its funny how reasonable people can have such different opinions. I too have done both, and I will never go back to the traditional method. For me, thats just WAY too much worry. The no sub method is ZERO worry. I can even go on vacation with eggs in the incubator and still sleep at night.

This is by no meens a new way. I've been doing it this way back when albino burms were first being produced,thats awhile ago... Also I've never lost an egg hatching with Grate, perlite and water. Yet I have lost eggs putting them down in wet vermiculite... If You don't know what to do buy hatch rite,Ive heard afew swear by it.. I'll stick to the "old" grate, water and perlite it works everytime.. Yep I cut eggs open too.

Van

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=288590239

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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

Kasey, we've used the grid/no substrate method for two years now and love it. As others have said, there is no guessing, no weighing of the parts of the substrate, etc. Put the eggs in, cover it and leave it alone for 50 days or so.

Having said that, I agree that if someone is already comfortable and successful with another method, why switch?
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

n/p

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Charles Glaspie

one question, wouldn't the grate method possible harm a hatchling should it leave the egg early and still have the yolk attached?

it does seems so much easier though.

Pitoon

>>one question, wouldn't the grate method possible harm a hatchling should it leave the egg early and still have the yolk attached?
>>
>>it does seems so much easier though.
>>
>>Pitoon

I did have one crawl out with the umbilical tied in a knot in such a way that the remainder of the yolk was never going to get absorbed...and i suspect it's just as nasty either way.

The grate didn't really affect her.She just couldn't get very far from the egg,being that she was still attached.(In fact,with any luck she may lay eggs of her own this year.)

I've got to include this pic...Just imagine me trying to tie this itty bitty knot...lol

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Charles Glaspie

im a firm believer in if its not broke dont fix it. i had a 100% hatch rate last season with vermic, so ill stay with it. I bought a bag of hatchrite, but wont be using it. I have a buddy having problems with his and i bought mine from the same guy, so ill scrap it.

i NEED to build/buy a large incubator for next season due to fact that ill have many ball clutches and Jamp reetics eggs, and i MAY play around then, but until ill keep it old school!

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Thanks
Chad Ramsey

I used vermiculite for 20 years and now I have switched to hatchrite. It allows you much more flexibility and does more for you so you do not have to do anything really. With the no substrate method it is much easier for you to lose your eggs if you make a mistake or is something goes wrong. If you do not have much experience with eggs or if you are not around all the time to keep an eye on your eggs I would suggest using substrate for incubation.

I have used vermiculite for the last 25 years with great success. Last year I tried the no substrate method. I had great results with it as well. I feel whatever works best for YOU is what you should use. They are both great methods. Going back quite a few years. I saw some of the first captive bred/hatched condros. The incubation set up was like this. The eggs were in the toe of a nylon stocking, hung above the water in a one gallon pickle jar with an aquarium heater in the water. Now that's "OLD SCHOOL". And the three eggs laid all hatched.
Bruce Delles c/o Twin Cities Reptiles
IN THE RETAIL REPTILE BUSINESS SINCE 1978