Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For those of you who havent seen some of my other posts, I have a female veiled who had egg/ovary removing surgery last November to save her life.
So, recently she has been acting in all the classic gravid female behaviors, with the exception of the gravid coloration. I have seen her digging into the bottom of the ficus plants' soil with relative ease, so I didnt put a specified "egg-laying tub" in the enclosure. I had figured that basically she was just going through the motions of being gravid, because I paid over $600 dollars to be sure this wouldnt happen again.

She hadnt been eating much until yesterday when she ate ten WER gutloaded crickets dusted with d3-free calcium powder, (she's kept outdoors).
Prior to her eating, she had been looking a bit dehydrated. Not extremely dehydrated, I just felt that her eyes were just a little sunken in. To combat this, I was giving her showers every 2-3 days or so, on top of dripper, frequent mistings, etc.

Well, out of nowhere today, she looks terrible. She developed edema on her neck/chest ( i only give her vitamin supplementation once a month ), her vent looks swollen like she'd been trying to pass eggs, her eyes are terribly sunk in, she's very lethargic and has her eyes closed.

I made an emergency vet visit for tonight at 8 pm, but I really don't know what they can do for her at this point. These symptoms literally came about over night. I'm in total shock and disbelief. If anyone has any ideas. advice, pointers, etc, we could really use it and really appreciate it. Thanks.

Gosh I hope they can help your poor little girl. Seems you did so much to prevent this from happening, just to go through it all anyway, dang shame.

Let us know how you made out at the vet, and how she's doing
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

Thanks for the kind words. However, I was able to get her to the vet, and it doesnt look good. X rays revealed a low bone density but no eggs, and blood work showed low calicium levels and very bad kidneys. As a result of the kidneys, her uric acid levels are through the roof.

The vet said that Lola's kidney's are probably the result of chronic light dehydration. I dont understand it, though. I made it a point for as long as have had her to keep up on her hydration levels via misting, direct spraying, a dripper, and more recently showers.

She also said that she may have a slight case of MBD, which I'm also shocked to hear because she has also always received proper UV lighting or direct sunlight and regular calcium supplementation. Actually, to be perfectly honest, some of my husbandry, especially supplementing was off in the beginning, (roughly a year ago) so is it possible that some of these problems have culminated now?

Lola received some fluids and calcium and I'm supposed to give her fluids intraveniously (sp?) for a while to see if she makes any progress. But I am now wondering if it is even fair to Lola to try to make a recovery.

It is my understanding that when the kidney's are damaged, it is usually irreversible. If this is true, then even if I am able to get her through this "round", she will be constantly be fighting dehydration, high uric acid levels. Basically, is it possible for her to have a quality of life at this point? I don't know if it is fair to Lola to keep her alive if I can not provide her as much.

We are very shocked and devistated by all this, and I much as it pains me to feel this way, I think like I am just prolonging her pain at this point. What would you all do? I know it's ultimately my decision, but it would help to hear some opinions on this. Thanks.

it's not quite the same thing, but one of my tree frogs was recently doing really bad. i felt so sorry for the poor guy, but after a while he seemed to be doing better, but it only lasted a couple of days, soon after i found him face down in the water. i still wish i had put him down, but, hindsight is 20/20. the decision is ultimately yours, but if i were in your situation(although maybe not what you should do, like i said its all on you) i think i would put her down. i'm sorry to hear about this. it's always hard to deal with the loss of something close. choose wisely, but i'm sure whatever you do, the intentions are good, and thats all that can matter in this situation.

Speaking in dog and cat veterinary terms, yes, there is some degree of "transient" kidney failure. I am an ICU veterinary nurse, having specialized in for three years in the largest veterinary trauma unit in the country. Mind you, we didn' see a lot of exotics in ICU, but I have seen some miraculous cases of kidney recovery, after hovering near death. Ethylene glycol (common antifreeze) is especially toxic to our furry friends' kidneys, and I've seen some animals recover from this, even when blood numbers on paper spelled sure doom. Recently, a friend--and fellow vet tech--was given a bouquet of flowers from her husband as a surprise, and left it on the table for her when she got home from work. Well, the bouquet had lilies in it, which is quite toxic to cat kidneys. You see how this story goes. Friend, distraught; husband...dog house. Thankfully the kitty made a complete recovery, although she had some scary renal values for awhile.

Now do keep in mind that these are generally cases of acute renal failure, vs chronic renal failure. We see many dogs and cats live comfortably with a good quality of life in chronic renal failure. They're owners know when to say goodbye, when the daily life is more bad days than good for their pet. Don't beat yourself up for trying to help a pet; listen to your vet, he/she is a professional and has been through this before, and will know when your little chameleon just can't fight anymore. You are not a bad owner for trying to help. Trust me, I've seen enough instances of owners that can't let go; you are quite far from that.

Best wishes,
Kerry

I'm very sorry to hear that you have to face such a tough dilemma. My sympathies to you and your chameleon.
Like Twinoats already said, you (and your vet) will know when it's time to continue the hard fight and when it's time to call it a night. To everything there is a season...
Best of luck.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

She passed on last night. She looked so badly night night that it was almost a relieve to find her dead this morning. Obviously, we are very upset, but at least her suffering is over.

I think this is a strong argument against the "arid desert" veiled chameleon image, and for the importance of regular showering and other hydration techniques. Misting is just not enough. Sadly, I guess I had the "desert arid" veiled misconception for too long. I just wish I knew everything I know now about these animals when I first got her, or even a few months ago. I wish I had been more meticulous about her hydration. She looked great the last month or two, only showing slight signs or dehydration in the last few days. It goes to show how important flawless husbandry and observation techniques are. She withheld any outward signs of problems until it was too late. I had no idea it was this serious.

Man, this sucks. I guess I can only learn from it and move on at this point. I hope she had a peaceful life while she was healthy. Thanks again, everyone.

I didn't see your post yesterday and just read through them, now. Having gone through this with you last year I felt very connected to Lola (as you well know) and to you. Reading your posts made me get all weepy since I lost Luna so quickly, too (not sure if you knew that she died on July 2nd) and I was so confused. I am just so sorry for you and feel your loss.

I am just guessing, but even though her surgery was back in November she had a tough road before hand she may not have gotten her calcium back up to the proper level. Luna had constant imbalances and I began to have her calcium checked regularly in the last few months. Of course hers was due to developing clutches, but I wonder if there is some other hormonal trigger that somehow affected Lola's calcium level. Keeping Luna's hydration up was almost a year round ordeal and she got showers 1x-2x/DAY for periods of time and she still had some problems.

I am just so sorry to hear this because you went through SO much with her. I hope that even though Lola is gone you will still at least lurk the forum to help inform newbie and potential keepers of Lola's situtation. I will probably not get another cham until after the winter, but figure I still have something to give back to the forum for all who suffered , and laughed , and cried with me and Luna over the last couple years. I think that both Lola and Luna's story reinforces the fact that chams typically show now (or minimal) signs of ill health until serious damage is done. So please don't disappear.

I weep with you...

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky

1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

I am so sorry to hear about your loss, you did everything you could do for her from what it sounds like, and then some. Its horrible the way they can look so healthy until it's too late. You did the best job possible for her, dont beat yourself up about it.

Deepest sympathies
Erin
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1:1 Veileds (Gene and Alis)
1:0 Sambava Panther (Knoxville)
1:1 Albino Clawed Frogs (Phedre and Jos)
?? Fire belly toad (Harold)
Various cats and dogs

Thanks for the kind words, everyone.

Lele, i recently read about Luna. I'm sorry I didnt contact you sooner, but please accept my condolances. I know know how you must have felt. I really didnt realize how attached we had become to this amazing animal. This is way tougher than i thought.

I take comfort in the fact that we did make every effort, to the best of our knowledge, to give her a happy, healthy life. I am also grateful for the time I had with her, and for all that I have learned from her and about chameleons since aquiring her. I have recently rescued two badly emaciated and dehydrated jacksonii, so the knowlegde I have gained from dealing with Lola, especially regarding diet, supplementation and hyration, will prove invaluable. These two ( a male and female) will keep me active on the board, and will certainly put the knowledge I gained from Lola to the test. They are doing quite well, though, I must say.

Thank you all for helping me through some of the less pleasant times with her. Your support and advice when she was eggbound was very informative and comforting.

I hope that we all can learn from experiences like this one, Lele's and Victor's to better care for our animals.

Thank you all again,
Josh