Reply by PHFaust — 2026-02-09 16:52:21 GMT

>>Just stepped out for a smoke guy. Back now. Thanks for waiting.
>>
>>Joe

That was one LOOOOONG smoke!

Welcome back! Im still here waiting.

Whatcha still keeping?
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Reply by Herpetoculture1 — 2026-02-08 01:27:50 GMT

Just stepped out for a smoke guy. Back now. Thanks for waiting.

Joe

Reply by UAWPrez — 2016-10-04 01:48:07 GMT

I'd say they are out working the JOB to feed their indigo.

Reply by tbrophy — 2015-07-25 12:30:47 GMT

Facebook. There have not been a dozen posts for all of 2015. KS had a great run, but only advertisers keep it alive.

Reply by abronia66 — 2015-09-28 15:22:31 GMT

No D. couperi has reached 9'.... They will grow the duration of their lifespan, but only ever so slightly after five - six years of age... Tony Carlisle had, what was perhaps, the largest D couperi in captivity several years ago, Mongo was approximately 8' 06" and weighed a solid 21 pounds... If you want to reach the 9' mark, get a Bordner line D. corais or Snodgres line D rubidus, as they are some of the largest out there.

Reply by tinamarie — 2015-04-15 21:23:01 GMT

Hi Vic the brown color is from sphagnum moss .The parent were captive bred buy Jeff Jones in Brimfield IL in 2007 Tinamarie

Reply by tbrophy — 2015-04-15 19:33:07 GMT

They become granular within a short period of time, maybe an hour at most. They should feel rough like sandpaper. Those do not appear to be fertile, but it cannot hurt to incubate them until you are certain.

Reply by VICtort — 2015-04-14 22:38:54 GMT

Dear tinamarie,

first congratulations on getting that far along, you must be doing something right to get breeding and egg laying. Those eggs are longer, more lozenge shaped than mine, which are more rounded/sperical by comparison. I think they can vary. They look sort of tannish/brown, is that from the substrate they were laid in, perhaps sphagnum/peat moss? Eggs are usually white to off-white cream colored, so they appear discolored in the photo. Do you know why? If just stained from substrate, not likely a problem, if changing colors as they incubate, it may be a bad sign.

I can not see the little spicules that healthy eggs usually have, the photo not detailed enough, are they present?

Those eggs if not fertile usually will go bad within about 2 weeks of incubation, so you will probably know their fate. IF any doubt, give life a chance and keep incubating, you may be surprised. If you see dramatic mold growth, not promising, suggest you take that one out and separate from others. Good eggs don't smell foul, so bad odor and heavy mold is usually sign of going bad. Mild mold is often not a killer, often they will hatch, ask us for help if you are faced with that.

I wish you the best of luck, it is really fun to take snakes full cycle. Let us know how it goes. As you will learn, hatching healthy eggs is a challenge, indigos should never be cheap, everyone I know has been humbled with failed breeding attempts. But Ah... those successful ones, How Sweet It Is! Good luck, Vic

PS If you care to share, where did you get the parents? Do you know the origin of the sire and dam?

Reply by tinamarie — 2015-04-14 20:56:46 GMT

Hi Vic here are the eggs at 8 days old what due you think Tinamarie

Reply by VICtort — 2015-04-14 07:10:51 GMT

Dear TinaMarie,

depending on your ability and experience, you should start seeing some darkened areas within a few weeks if you are candling. I don't bother to do it, I assume eggs are fertile unless it is obvious they went bad, molded extensively, caved in, etc. Give life a chance, sometimes a healthy snake hatches from a sorry looking egg.

The eggs are normally laid soft but become turgid, firming up within several hours of being laid. The normal egg has tiny rough looking "spicules" on it. I am suspicious of eggs that are smooth, or trapezoid shaped, as they are usually infertile. Sometimes a healthy snake emerges from odd eggs, such as spherical shaped ones, small ones, extra large, etc. Healthy eggs are usually about the size of a Grade AA chicken egg, oval shaped, some more rounded than others.

Did your indigo present you with nice looking eggs?

good luck, Vic

Reply by Lovin2act — 2015-04-17 03:27:21 GMT

I love this idea and have been at Home Depot and Lowes tonight scoping out pipes and trying to make a plan! Both of my boys are in 6x3 cages, so I'm thinking of making a U type structure with the pipes using the curving connectors, maybe go about 5 feet long on each side of the U shape, and 2.5 feet wide with it. I really wish I could make it a double decker but I can't find 180 degree connectors that would allow me to do that for the 3 inch piping haha!
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by VICtort — 2015-03-23 23:44:48 GMT

Good for you, I think simple things like this can only enhance and enrich a captives experience. I too use PVC, making simple mazes and challenging the snake to find its food. My Indigos are quite sight oriented, so they are not real skilled...

Using PVC pipes offers a good way for the indigos to seek shelter and thermoregulate, probably a simple way in captivity to imitate a burrow, which Indigos clearly use in the wild.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-10-04 22:29:54 GMT

Really? [bleep]? Another word for a female canine gets a [bleep]???? Wow! Oh, golly gee willikers!

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-10-04 22:25:30 GMT

I'm sure you're right....so I just went over to facebook, to rejoin that world, after a four or five year abstinence.

All was going fine, my account was confirmed, I was re-listing some of my old racing friends, and suddenly some little gremlin jumped in and said I had to LogIn again, then I had to identify Captcha crap, then they wanted my phone number, so they could call me, and said it would be added to my "Timeline", whatever that is......that was the final straw, and my Luddite side won the battle, and I'm once again, NOT a facebook guy.

Interestingly, I have ~14,000 posts at Bimmerforums, a BMW forum - I'm a pro BMW tech, and a racer. That and other BMW and other automotive .com forums are the ONLY way to go for that community - facebook is for children, in that world.

Ah well, sorry to [bleep]....just got seriously pissed at facebook, again.

Hope to continue seeing you guys here, and at FaunaClassified's Drymarchon forums!

Chris

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-10-04 21:51:25 GMT

I resisted FB for years, but there are lots of herp sites over there. Drymarchon Enthusiasts and East Coast Drymarchon are good. Several other colubrid sites. Some good; some not so good.

I believe the train has left the station for many .com type forum sites. Sad, cause I learned a lot and made some good contacts through them. Even bought snakes from some of them!

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-10-04 20:36:44 GMT

As I just mentioned to tbrophy, over at the FaunaClassified Indigo forum, I'm really just not a Facebook guy. I did see some nice pictures there, though... including tbrophy's '13 all-black....almost as big as my '12 snakes!

And, oh, that enormous bright yellow cribo!

Chris

Reply by Lovin2act — 2014-10-04 19:49:17 GMT

>>One of the reasons many have migrated to FB.

Yeeeep. Are there any good Indigo groups on there? Just joined one for mussuranas but haven't seen any for drys. I also haven't looked very hard either though ha!
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-10-04 17:23:32 GMT

One of the reasons many have migrated to FB.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-10-04 16:33:36 GMT

I just tried, several times, to upload photos into a folder and gallery. I had absolutely no luck, and the page keeps showing I have no photos.

Here's a link:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500766

The format of these forums and the difficulty using them is incredibly frustrating -- you'd think that Kingsnake would switch to the samee format every other forum in the country uses!

Grrrr!

Reply by Lovin2act — 2014-10-02 01:53:19 GMT

Haha well let's just say I got lucky! During the heat wave here in so Cal I found him in his water bowl on cage cleaning day, and when I went to pull him out he stayed put in his bowl. So I set him on the counter in it, grabbed my phone, and snapped away. Super stoked I was able to get that great angle! This was one of the first times I've ever been able to photograph him sitting still and not have all blury shots of him

For posting here you have to upload to your user gallery that you set up in the gallery section on here. Not too difficult but can be kind of a pain.

This guy here is 4 years old and a few months I believe. I have another two year old as well who is kind of a jerk haha! He likes to bite in his cage and strike at me when I pass by. Once out he is fine thankfully. My older guy never was cage aggressive so go figure why my younger one is. Oh well gives him some edge I guess ha!
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-10-02 01:32:43 GMT

Well, hell, Marcus! Beautiful photo...now please, tell me how you did that! I post pictures all the time at other (BMW) forums, but the only option I see here is to start some photobucket link or something. (I'm a computer dummy, I really don't know what a URL is, sorry.)

I'll post some pics of my babies, too, if someone will tell me how!

How old is your boy?

Chris

Reply by Lovin2act — 2014-09-25 21:20:12 GMT

>>Looks good. How big is he by now?

Pushing 6 feet, don't think he is going to be breaking any length records, but he has got the girth thing going well for him
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by abronia66 — 2015-05-08 18:42:46 GMT

Somebody in NJ has permits for education, while a friend in a neighboring state keeps the breeders.
New Jersey will not allow any ESA protected species to be kept, without an almost impossible to acquire, permit... As mentioned earlier, permits are there for educational purposes, but far and few between... It never hurts to try getting one, I recall BW Smith getting the elusive D. couperi permit in Georgia, with a great deal of persistence and paper pushing on his end.

Reply by englishaussie — 2014-12-26 02:01:40 GMT

I know someone in NJ that has Easterns so i suspect that they are allowed.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-09-14 20:17:29 GMT

I had previously seen that Kingsnake has a "law" section, so I followed a couple of links there, to find this:
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/xotic_permreq.pdf

As stupid as this is, it appears New Jersey thinks damned near every snake and reptile in the world is "exotic", including rat snakes, king snakes, geckos, green snakes and even ring necked snakes. All of the above would require a permit, in New Jersey, according to what I read in this document. Interestingly, no Indigos are on the list, but I'd be very surprised if the bureaucratic idiocy that created this list allowed other species to escape their ignorance.

It would seem to me that if someone had Federal permits, and the snake was harmless and native to the US, and non-native to the state in question, then State authorities would have no interest.

But, I'm not a bureaucrat, so I really don't have the mental capacity to understand their world.

Chris

Reply by BobS — 2014-09-14 18:05:46 GMT

I just tried to find the email and couldn't.

As I remember, it was something about being a federally endangered species and you could not keep one here and even if they did it would have to be for educational purposes.

It must've been some years back because I can't find it. Maybe they were misinformed ( the person I talked to) ?

Reply by BobS — 2014-09-14 17:52:10 GMT

Np

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-09-13 17:34:36 GMT

Try also Tom Crutchfield; he's a regular dealer on this site, has everything from Texans that look exactly like Easterns, to Gaboon Vipers.

Can I ask just what law New Jersey is using to forbid Easterns? What is it, exactly, that the law forbids?

Reply by Lovin2act — 2014-09-11 15:09:38 GMT

>>I used to task "Epidemic" about Rubidus here several years ago here. I live in NJ and they won't allow possession of an Eastern Indigo regardless of it being federally protected or not.
>>
>>Are there any Dry Guys that work with very dark Texas Indigos that are very dark or at least solid dark brown without the mottled look? More solid uniform brown?
>>
>>Can Texans have a nice attitude like an Eastern? I had an Eastern when I was a kid and it had a very nice disposition.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Bob Stranzenbach.

Robert Harper has some pretty dark one's if I recall correctly. Check him at: The Ubiquitous Serpent
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by ceduke — 2014-09-06 23:05:55 GMT

I don't know how to attach a photo from my computer, I uploaded mine to photobucket first and then put them up here.

Grendel is currently my only Dry, thought I hope to add a BT Cribo at some point as well.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-09-06 15:11:33 GMT

My biggest boy is due to shed, today or tomorrow, and I was going to add a picture or two to your thread, when he does. I'm quite familiar with the "attachment" procedure at various BMW forums, but don't know how to attach a picture that's on my computer to a post here. How did you do that?

How many couperi do you have?

All the best!
Chris

Reply by ceduke — 2014-09-06 02:09:23 GMT

Grendel actually gets any kinked hatchlings produced, as well as slug eggs. He seems to like them a lot.

Grendel is a hair over 6 feet long. Sometimes he looks much smaller to me, sometimes he looks huge....depending on which snakes I've been feeding/handling that day, I suppose.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-09-05 23:55:05 GMT

Aw, nothing wrong with letting him be around corn snakes....let him pick one out for dinner!

(Actually, I'm just kidding....I really want to let my couperi have a snake or two for a treat...there are so many garter snakes around here...but I can't bring myself to take the chance that they'll get Cryptosporidiosis serpenti).

Your Grendel is very handsome. I have 4 snakes from Robert, two red throat '12s, and 2 pure black '13s. How big is your boy?

Chris

Reply by lovin2act — 2014-09-05 17:40:28 GMT

Very nice!! Glad you held on to him!!
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by ceduke — 2014-09-05 15:23:08 GMT

Grendel was produced by Robert Bruce. I purchased him from his original owner with the name Grendel...he is named after the Grendel in John Gardner's novel, which retells the story of Beowulf from Grendel's point of view.

I discovered drys about twelve years ago when someone was generous enough to let me spend a few minutes holding one at the Sacramento reptile expo. This year, I'm bringing him to the expo with me and hoping to pass that favor along to someone new. (Though it will be a little funny, I think, hanging out with Grendel at a booth full of corn snakes!)

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-09-05 15:09:44 GMT

Nice indigo! If you do not mind me asking, do you have any info on Grendal's lineage. Is his name taken from "Beowulf"?

Reply by lovin2act — 2014-09-05 17:22:18 GMT

>>Yep, african mole snake

I only knew cause a while back a guy was selling adults at NARBC in Anaheim for a steal, but I decided not to pull the trigger. Have regretted that since! Would love to get my hands on a white or black one!
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by Oxyrhopus — 2014-09-04 00:53:48 GMT

Yep, african mole snake

Reply by lovin2act — 2014-09-03 16:28:53 GMT

>>If not recognized at first glance, a hint is they can have up to 95 newborns.
>>
>>Dan

Looks like a mole? Could be wrong though
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by Oxyrhopus — 2014-09-03 00:44:09 GMT

If not recognized at first glance, a hint is they can have up to 95 newborns.

Dan

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-09-27 12:15:09 GMT

would love to see photos. You may wish to visit "Drymarchon Enthusiasts" on Facebook.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-09-26 22:24:01 GMT

Just to clarify, the breeder told me he feeds them as he does, because he'd need whole bunches of big cages otherwise. In fact, here's a quote from an email:

QUOTE
I've had indigos double in weight in about two months. I have to hold them back when they are babies, otherwise I'd have 50 to 100 animals that needed switching to bigger cages.

If they get as much food as they want and their environment supports eating a lot, Eastern Indigo males can be 4 to 5 feet after one year, six to seven feet at two years and up to eight feet at three years. Take one foot off for females. I wouldn't breed them until they were at least three years old though, and I haven't had good success with females until they are 5 years old.

I've found that couperi grow rapidly at any age until they are adults. If they become more than 2 inches in diameter at their thickest point, they are overweight. I can't give you a reliable growth curve because it depends on food supply and their environment being right. In captivity though, you do want to be aware of the possibility of any feeding regimen making an indigo overweight, especially if you are trying to achieve rapid growth. It sounds like you are doing great.

UNQUOTE

Yes, I wish I'd received them when they were younger; so I could have fed them more. But I'm hopeful that they're going to be able to make up for the deficit. Why everyone else can get their couperi to eat three times a week, and I can't seem to get mine to eat more often, I don't know. Maybe it was that lengthy, skimpy initial feeding regimen? But certainly, none of my snakes are skinny.

And they are all growing very well now....
Chris

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-09-26 15:03:38 GMT

Well, I read that earlier post again. I was wrong about growing 4" in a year. My apologies. That would have been extreme even with maintenance feeding!

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-09-26 14:57:09 GMT

This could get kind of controversial, but I know with some species of colubrids it can result in picky eaters. There is just no reason to starve (maintenance feed) a Drymarchon for several months, other than it saves the breeder a few dollars in food. If I read the post corectly, a baby indigo grew only 4" in a year while it was being maintenance fed. I realize that snakes continue to grow throughout their lives, albeit much more slowly after reaching sexual maturity. But much of their growth occurs in that first year.
I doubt if there are studies to support this; it is anecdotal, based upon conversations I have had with others and observations I have made. I am sure the breeder disagrees with me. But ask yourself one question. Why would you "maintenance feed" for almost a year? Gotta be just one reason.

Reply by brosborough — 2014-09-26 14:02:37 GMT

I know this kind of got off track but to keep the new question going, does this maintenance feeding ever stunt their growth or would they pick right up and grow like they should when given the proper amount of food?

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-09-26 12:51:02 GMT

Maintenance feeding is just underfeeding to save a few bucks on food. Not good for colubrid neonates. Ball python breeders are notorious for this.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-09-25 23:15:43 GMT

I feed mine as much as they'll eat. Your '13 snake is much larger than my pair of '13 snakes.... and I have to think this is because the breeder was "maintenance feeding". In fact, he told me so, when I questioned him about the study on size.

By your question over whether I feed my snakes as much as they'll eat in 5 minutes, we have the same breeder. And as much as I respect this couperi master, I feed them all the animals they'll eat at each feeding, however long it takes.

My pair of '13 snakes were about ~18", when I receeived them in May. They are about 30" now.

My '12 pair was exactly a year old when I got them (USFWS lost my permit applications TWICE!). That pair was only 22" when I got them. Now, 1 year later, they are ~ 54" The female of the '12 pair really only eats birds, although I lay chick legs on top of a mouse now and then, to smuggle in the rodents. She also gets 1/4 of a human vitamin now and then, as there is some debate over whether birds are less nutritious than rodents.

I fed them all last Saturday. The older (red-throat) male at 2 large adult mice, 1 rat pup, and 2 baby quail. The older (red throat) female ate 1 baby quail and 2 chicks. The '13 (all black) male ate 4 hoppers, the '13 female ate only 2 hopper mice.
All of them were offered more food, and all refused.

I spoil them. I was feeling that maybe I could feed them twice a week, so I defrosted a bunch of food last night -- mice, rats, chicks.....and not a single snake would take food. Tonight, I cleaned cages, and the big male said he'd eat..... like your experience, he lets me know!

Yeah, I love these snakes! I have had many thousands of snakes in my life, from king snakes to mambas. But I doubt if I'll ever keep anything but Drymarchon again!

All the best!
Chris

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-09-25 11:32:24 GMT

Also, males get larger. Longer and heavier.

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-09-25 11:29:03 GMT

That is good growth. I feed my 2013 average 2X week, sometimes 3X. My 2013 all black male ate 3 mice yesterday. Sometimes throw in a chick. Or chunk of snake meat. As long as he shows good growth in length, not just girth, I feed heavily. When growth in length slows, I cut down on food. Really just like I feed all colubrids, just more frequent. Seems like lots of folks underfeed babies, but overfeed adults!
They eat much more in summer. My 7' 2011 male eats sporadically in fall/winter. Maybe every 10 days.

Reply by brosborough — 2014-09-25 09:19:02 GMT

My 2013 male. Took a measurement tonight. As tame as he is I can't seem to get him to sit still on the floor. Lol. Using a string and measuring from nose to tip of tail, ~43". That seem on par? How much do you feed twice a week? Three mice? 5 mice? As much as he will eat in 5, 10... Minutes? I just fed him yesterday. Pooped today so cleaned out his cage. I put him back in his cage and then cleaned out his moss box to add new moss. He had crawled under the paper towels substrate. So as I slide the glass door back to put the moss box back in he literally flew out from under the paper towels, bolted right to the open door, and was all raised up just looking at me as if to say "where is the food". I just blinked at him. Never seen him or any snake I own move so darn fast before. It was like he just appeared from no where. The look he gave me. I see more and more every day why people say these are just a different experience when it comes to a snake.

I didn't feed him again but now I'm worried I might not be feeding him enough.

Also each day I have him it has me thinking I need to go buy a female and take a shot at breeding them a few years down the road. Never breed any of my reptiles before and this is probably a tough snake to be my first start but I can't help it. It's just so different from my kingsnakes. Dunno if I could ever get rid of any babies though. How could you part with them. Be like a bunch of cute puppies that you can't give away.

Reply by abronia66 — 2015-08-19 18:45:02 GMT

Get rid of the belly heat and plan to purchase larger enclosures in the VERY near future... D m rubidus don't do well with belly heat, a radiant heat panel, placed high in the enclosure, would work best, but they are best maintained at room temperature with access to low 80's for a couple of hours per day, though they should always have a cool retreat available... Feed them as varied a diet as possible, smaller more frequent meals work best, and while fish will create a stench and mess of legendary proportions, its a great part of a varied diet... Just be certain to use fish that are thiaminase free, such as crappie, trout and blue gill.

Reply by GBUEnterprises — 2014-06-24 14:13:28 GMT

One more axanthic baby with the possibility of a third!

Reply by gbuenterprises — 2014-06-23 15:47:05 GMT

How do I edit my post. That should read 2 normals are out.

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-08-31 17:05:51 GMT

Not the document I mentioned, but some interesting items, including the calcium thing:
http://books.google.com/books?id=n4sXQbXYPOAC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=nutritional value chicks vs. rodents&source=bl&ots=pUBk4T-5le&sig=6KxWsPdXJc2Yxem5e3aiasI1-zE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FFEDVJWJBoPLgwSzv4CYAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=nutritional value chicks vs. rodents&f=false

I'm pretty sure that a varied diet will be the best regimen, as it is in human beings. I can't quite bring myself to freeze WC garter, water and other snakes though, and I'm afraid of parasites from live fish, snakes, lizards. Then there's that cryptosporidiosis thing....

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-08-31 15:09:32 GMT

Thank you, Alan. That's very interesting - it certainly doesn't show chicks as being lacking in much of anything. I had read another study by a major zoological organization, indicating a chick diet was inadequate for birds of prey, due to calcium deficiencies.

I looked this up, after Robert Bruce had advised me that chicks and quail were not as nutritious as rodents. I did, at the time, also look up cryptosporidiosis, and what I read scared me enough to avoid older birds for feeding use.

I'm going to see if I can find the study I'd found before, regarding chicks vs. rodents as a diet. Meanwhile, many thanks for the input -- it seems to me that my snakes much prefer birds; when they initially refuse an offered rodent, they will IMMEDIATELY and ALWAYS take a day old quail....which begins the feeding session, after which I can stuff almost anything in their face.

Reply by alanb — 2014-08-25 00:51:07 GMT

http://mikedupuyhawkfood.com/images/mdhf_nutritional_jul2012.pdf

Try this one

Reply by alanb — 2014-08-25 00:45:44 GMT

hawkfood.com/images/mdhf_nutritional_jul2012.pdf

Alan B

Reply by bmwdirtracer — 2014-08-24 20:19:14 GMT

I've done some research, inspired by R. Bruce. One day chicks and quail are lacking in calcium. Chicken necks and other commercial fowl parts may often carry cryptosporidiosis, which can kill your lovely couperi.

I have a girl '12 who greatly prefers birds. At least every other meal, I squeeze in a rodent. I agree that heavily scenting the rodent with a bird works. In fact, since I cut the legs off my chicks for my '12 couperi, I merely lay a leg on top of a mouse, and offer it right after the rest of the bird is engulfed.

After the snakes are comfortable with tong-feeding, it's pretty easy to stuff a mouse in their mouth while they're stretching the muscles after swallowing a chick, too. Good thing, because my '12 girl is now about big enough for me to be able to stop cutting the legs off chicks....for which I'll be very grateful.

Reply by shadowguy — 2014-06-07 04:34:53 GMT

The nutritional value of chicken necks is marginal indeed. The calcium to phosphorous ration leans too far on the calcium side due to the bone content. They have errantly been the staple of people with wild felines for many years, owing solely to the low cost!!! Bone and fat are not a diet for a creature so fine as an Indigo!

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-05-29 17:32:47 GMT

The next time you feed him chicken, as soon as he finishes swallowing the chicken and is still in feed mode, pick up a dead rodent with your tongs and stick it in front of his face. He should still be in feed mode and will quickly eat the next food item. Before you try this, make sure he is good and hungry and has not fed for five or six days. I have done this to get a reluctant indigo to accept rodents.
You may also try smearing a piece of "grocery store" fish on a rodent. Get it good and fishy smelling, then offer to the indigo. I sometimes put the rodent into a box with a hole cut in the side. Seems to get them to start exploring and become interested in what is in the box!

Reply by minicopilot — 2014-06-09 01:22:09 GMT

They are the same as BT's and Unis. Set the eggs up the way you did the BT's.
I've never worked with Easterns .
Good luck

Reply by Lovin2act — 2014-04-04 02:21:30 GMT

Haha so true man! And as soon as I decide to do a major cage cleaning that takes me an hour to do, they wait to be put back in to christen it with their lovely mud tossing, every dang time I swear!
-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-04-04 02:09:34 GMT

Yeah, interesting that even in cool, fall room temps, they still digest fine. At 70 degrees it takes them three days to pass their "nuclear waste". At 75 degrees, it takes about two days. At 80 degrees, it takes about an hour!! I love the hell out of my indigos, but they have the metabolic rate of a mammal!

Reply by Lovin2act — 2014-04-03 21:47:15 GMT

Also that is something I love about North American colubrids, most of them, if protected from injury, can be kept at room temperature if need be. Saves money on electricity haha.

^^Amen to that haha! Mine both stay as far away from the warmer end as much as possible, I sometimes wonder why I bother

But of course I will always bother cause they are worth it!

-----
~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

Reply by OrangeHeterodon — 2014-04-03 19:09:28 GMT

They are kept at a nature center, only one is on display to the public though (larger one).

Also that is something I love about North American colubrids, most of them, if protected from injury, can be kept at room temperature if need be. Saves money on electricity haha.

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-04-03 14:58:56 GMT

I agree with you about allowing them to choose their own temperature. In a big cage with a temperature gradient, high temps within a small area of the cage are fine, providing lower temps (low 70's) are available. Indigo keepers get into trouble (not you) when they keep the cage hot because eastern indigos are almost a sub-tropical species. I have heard horror stories where indigos rubbed their rostrals off trying to escape high temps. Frankly, I keep mine at room temp for much of the year.

Hey, I am just glad to see some action on this forum. Do you keep your indigos at a school? Nature center?

Reply by OrangeHeterodon — 2014-04-03 14:39:29 GMT

As I said, it is just two possibilities. Without a picture, a guess is all that can be made unless a nearly exact if not exact event has occurred for which I can compare and give a more precise answer based on experience. A picture though would at least allow a better judgement of what may be going on.

And yes, scale rot does typically, operative word typically, occur on ventral scales, yet I have seen a few cases where it has occurred on dorsal scales as well.

The two Indigos I work with at work have rather large cages to thermoregulate as they see fit. The don't spend a majority of time on the warm end indeed, but it is there should the snake recognize that its body temperature be in need of raising. One is new, at work for 2 years now, but the other has been there for over about 7 years now and has no raw area from rubbing its nose at the cage sides and/or furniture.

Also, through my 15 years of snake keeping (I know it isn't as long as other people but it is long enough for me to learn a few useful things), all answers for why something is wrong should be looked into and held in regard until proven otherwise by a conclusive answer that may consist of 1 or more parts.

Overall you are right though, it is a guess, they are merely possibilities that come to my mind. I can't see the snake first hand, I saw no link for a picture for 2nd hand observation (I may have overlooked it), I just have a worded description of the condition.

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-04-03 14:24:18 GMT

Scale rot is typically a problem with the ventral scales, not dorsals. Finally, be cautious about ascribing a problem to a "genetic defect". There are potential problems from inbreeding indigos (enlarged hearts, split dorsal scales), but likely not flaky dorsal scales. Sounds like you are guessing.

Reply by tbrophy — 2014-04-03 12:37:19 GMT

High temps and indigos are a bad combination. Despite the fact they occur in Florida, they do not do well with high temps in captivity. They will become over-active and rub their rostrals raw trying to escape the heat.

Reply by OrangeHeterodon — 2014-04-03 02:42:55 GMT

How often is the moss replaced? Does the snake stay mostly on the cool end of the cage? Bacteria love damp areas, and especially damp dark areas. If the snake's body temp is too low then it will not be able to fight off bacterial pathogens that causes infections such as scale rot. Indigo Snakes live in habitats that quite frequently reach into the upper 90s, the two Eastern Indigos that are kept where I work have a high end at 91 degrees Fahrenheit. I would increase your warm end to at least 85. I would also research scale rot a bit more so that you can determine for yourself as you are able to first-hand inspect the snake, if the snake may need treatment for scale rot. A vet visit can also usually determine this, at least it can with the vet that I go to.

Another possibility is just a genetic defect. Getting new genes to add to Eastern Indigo captive pools is rather difficult to accomplish, especially for the pet-trade side. As a result, a few generations of inbreeding may have caused a defect that causes the tips of scales to flake.

These are just two possibilities that come to my mind, there may be another reason. In any case I would look into scale rot a little if I was you JUST IN CASE, because if left untreated scale rot can become quite costly to treat, and it should be treated if the infected animal is valued.

Reply by englishaussie — 2014-03-18 15:11:41 GMT

Not sure on price, advertise & see if anyone bites. Federal permit is still required as far as i know, $100 takes about 3 months.

i would use Fedex priority overnight & costs around $100

Use an insulated box & put in a cool pack if you ship in summer, dont wanna cook the snake.

Good luck.
Andy.

Reply by minicopilot — 2014-06-09 01:23:01 GMT

Congrats