return to main index

  mobile - desktop
follow us on facebook follow us on twitter follow us on YouTube link to us on LinkedIn
 
click here for Rodent Pro
This Space Available
3 months for $50.00
Locate a business by name: click to list your business
search the classifieds. buy an account
events by zip code list an event
Search the forums             Search in:
News & Events: Herp Photo of the Day: Happy Rattlesnake Friday! . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day: Garter Snake . . . . . . . . . .  Suncoast Herp Society Meeting - Nov 23, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - Nov 23, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Tucson Herpetological Society Meeting - Nov 25, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Greater Cincinnati Herp Society Meeting - Dec 04, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Calusa Herp Society Meeting - Dec 05, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Southwestern Herp Society Meeting - Dec 07, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Kentucky Reptile Expo - Dec. 07, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  St. Louis Herpetological Society - Dec 08, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - Dec 15, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  San Diego Herp Society Meeting - Dec 17, 2024 . . . . . . . . . . 
Join USARK - Fight for your rights!
full banner - advertise here .50¢/1000 views
click here for Rodent Pro
pool banner - $50 year

RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration?

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Horned Lizards ] [ Reply To This Message ]
[ Register to Post ]

Posted by: Cable_Hogue at Sun Oct 29 06:22:50 2006  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Cable_Hogue ]  
   

Very well said FS.
As you know, I tend to heavily agree.
"I'm now confused as to why it is after my nearly 3 year experience, I no longer advocate such a diet, and Cable is now interested?"
The reason I am interested is to see this constantly recurring question laid to rest. Unfortunately I think this study may only do so partially. We all know that the different species have varied natural diets, some of which are far less ant specific than others. If you wanted to try this with solare, well, I think it would show crickets or other non-ant items to be a very poor choice in a short time. To complete this experiment for all HLs it would take many years and must include all species... or, you could not say this answers the question regarding HL diet, only "this" species of HL's diet. But this is a start!

Honestly, I don't think it will show a "no ant" diet as a viable substitute as much as it will show whether an HL will be alive after a prolonged non-ant diet. If an HL will live 10 years on an ant diet but only 5 on a non-ant diet, is that good enough? I would think one of the controls would need to be having a group that gets ants in line with their natural percentage so the two groups can be compared.
Roger didn't say "crickets" so it would seem all options other than ants are fair game, but this would also need to be defined in the parameters of the experiment.

Regarding formic acid, there is only one reference in a scientific study (by Bauer) that "seems" to indicate a more acidic balance in the dietary tract of HL's seems beneficial. But even this was not a specific study on this issue. It was a side note in his paper. It's my understanding that the venom in ants is a protein, not an acid. So in regard to the HLs noted venom tolerance (blood factors) this protein would seem more at issue than the acid they may contain in relation to blood chemistry. I am guessing here when I say it may be an enzyme that neutralizes the venom protein. Without venom will this build up and cause health issues? Is the byproduct of the venom breakdown an important dietary component? This experiment will at best only indirectly answer this question.

If it can be shown by this study that HLs do not fair as well as their ant fed siblings perhaps it will inspire a true study in the scientific cummunity directed exactly toward finding out why. And also lend credence to the hobby for an ant inclusive diet as well.

The opportunity for dietary study of HLs seems quit large. No ants? Ants? Which ants? Blood chemistry changes? Other less apparent deficiencies? Hydration differences (control)? and so forth.

Great thread!
-----
Phrynosoma.Org
Phrynosoma.Com


   

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Subscribe to this Thread ] [ Show Entire Thread ]


>> Next Message:  RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration? - reptoman, Sun Oct 29 07:45:43 2006
>> Next Message:  RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration? - Jeff Judd, Sun Oct 29 09:56:06 2006

<< Previous Message:  RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration? - fireside3, Sun Oct 29 05:04:07 2006