AR>>Such as?? My 25 years of lizard keeping experience tells me that a healthy, feeding animal loses weight ONLY from dehydration.

You are assuming a healthy feeding animal. My statement about weight loss in HL's did not assume the animal was otherwise healthy. If it did appear to be otherwise healthy and eating, then I would look to dehydration as one possibility. But not the only possibility. Most HL's losing appreaciable weight I would not consider otherwise healthy, and, they may develop other problems that go hand in hand with dehydration ( if they are ).

If you don't feed a HL properly, though you may hydrate it frequently...it will lose weight. Loss of appetite and parasitic infestation can cause anemic conditions and weight loss. Hydration state is important, but the remedy for an underweight HL is not always just "more water", nor is the cause for being underweight always dehydration.

FS3>My solare and cornutum have always been kept in low humidity/arid conditions ( same as their natural desert or semi-desert habitats ), and given water by misting, dropper, or very occasional soak. No humidity retaining substrates.

AR>>Likely you get away with this because they have learned to drink water and eat plenty of food. Not because they are drought tolerant. Same data, different conclusion.

Learned in the wild or learned in captivity? If you mean in captivity I would disagree in my cases.

Two cornutum I found at the end of the summer were of very healthy weight even during drought conditions where we experienced over 40 days above 100* and almost no rain for 3 months.
If it was merely learned behavior once in captivity, that would indicate there would be a transitional period where they would be losing wieght initially, and I have never had one lose weight once in my care except for 1 case of illness related to gastroenteritis and /or parasites. They all gain or maintain weight using my hydration protocol without humid substrate.
As far as the female solare I spoke of; the chances are that if she had relied on humidity in the substrate very much in the wild, then she would not be doing as well as she is under my care.

FS3> They do not lose weight except during hibernation, as expected.

AR>>This is a sign they are dehydrating and is certainly NOT expected amongst animals I have raised. They lose NO weight at any time except during dehydration events and is always reversed when the substrate is moistened.

This defies common sense I am afraid. The whole reason hibernating animals stock up on fat reserves is to make it through the winter. During this time they burn their fat stores for fuel. This will obviously cause weight loss.

AR>>I challenge you to take a shovel into the field next hunting trip. When you find a HL dig a 12" hole and see how moist it is where your new found animal slept last night. From what you say it is likely you will be surprised. You will not deny that in nature the species of HL you are working with sleep underground in nature, do you? Once you have dug my test hole perhaps you'll offer moist sand to your captives.

Yes, I deny that they "always" sleep underground in nature. In many places the ground is not sandy enough, too hard, or rocky to allow much burrowing, and they sometimes will not...or they can only burrow to a depth that makes humidity deep in the soil probably inconsequential at night temps. During day temps where evaporative action is taking place more readily, this may be of more consequence if they can burrow a few inches. I would offer that burring is likely more significant at night to avoiding predation and thermoregulating ( retaining heat at night ) than to hydration. Cornutum are known to sleep in bushes and small trees often.

FS3> They have healthy fat reserves. A solare I recently received underweight is putting on 1-2gm a week on Pogo's and hydration every few days by the methods above.

AR>>So you agree hydration is important and ants are a significant source of water. Great!

Of course I think hydration is important to every living thing. And I have maintained formic acid containing ants to be important to hydration status in HL's. I only disagree with your position that a HL in captivity will become dehydrated and lose weight without humid substrate conditions. That is a much different arguement.

AR>>This is why everyone now provides moist underground sleeping quarters in the form of damp sand or the like.

FS3>Who is "everyone"?

AR>>Everyone I talk to and have read posts of. AND those I advise in my store. Beginners raise babies to adults in 18 months using my moist substrate protocol.

Which species? 18 months isn't really surprising in captivity with someone who takes care of them and feeds them plenty of the right things, even without moist substrate. The most surprising statistic might be how many of these beginners still had a live HL after 18 months. Though they may reach sexual maturity and be considered an adult after 18 months, they will likely continue to grow for 2 years.

I am interested to learn more about any benefits, but your statement seems to indicate that your protocol may have more to do with a faster rate of average weight gain/growth, rather than prevention of weight loss if the substrate is not humid.

AR>>Phrynosomas are far worse at holding water than all other southwest desert species.

FS3>All other species? Or of all other species of reptile?

AR>>Sorry. I was not clear. All other diurnal desert lizards. I have kept all of California's diurnal desert genera and almost all species (except P mcalli and G silus) and once you have a few dozen of each it becomes clear who needs the most water.

Again, which specific species of Phrynosoma you have this experience with could provide more insight to me. Anecdotal observation is important to husbandry, but I think since your observations were not done with scientific methodology...as it relates to resiliency of HL's in the wild...the conclusions cannot be taken at face value alone. You are talking about many different genus/species residing in the same location which: #1. may not be residing with you in the same conditions they would have had in the wild. ( elevation, proximity to coast or mountains, etc.; and #2. You necessarily alter their natural state just by the process of captivity. An animal in captivity will not be experiencing all things in captivity the same as it would have in the wild. Therefore, what may be true observation for you in captive care hydration, may not be the case in the wild.

FS3>A gopher tortoise could be better for example, but that's a very relative observation. I will maintain that the HL as a diurnal desert dwelling species is "efficient" with it's water retention nonetheless until shown scientific data to prove otherwise.

AR>>OK, no sweat! But science only gleans "basic" data when it comes to husbandry. So far, keeping animals alive is not important to "scientists" so we must use what they teach us, combine it with what the animals teach us and make our own hypothesis. Just as you have done and I have done. From what I see here, I suspect we have similar data and are interpreting it differently. That is the source of further discussion and experimentation. I am happy to have read yours .and hope you are of mine.

I agree, and I am. I just don't have problems with weight loss or dehydration in HL's with dry substrate. Many of my adults are watered only once a week unless I'm preping for hibernation.

AR>>Desert Tortoises are very good at holding water (they sleep in humid chambers), but dehydrate easily in dry enclosures. They dig a moist burrow for access to the humidity, especially babies. If you'd like to discuss tortoises and humidity I can do that at great length privately.

I have some tortoise experience, but significant experience with box turtles, including desert ornates. They do the same. Though the ornates spend a great deal more time in the Texas sun than will the eastern species I have.

FS3> It may be less efficient than some other reptiles, but that wasn't my point.

AR>>It was my point that you challenged me on.

>>Thanks!

Thank you. I love a challenging exchange. It keeps me sharp.


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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

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