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RE: Hybrid Possibility Info Please......

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Posted by: nile_keepr at Fri Jul 27 00:16:02 2007  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by nile_keepr ]  
   

"One last thing, sorry if this irritates you nile, I just felt as though I should defend myself to these assumptions. If you don't agree with it, I understand that, but next time to give someone your opinions, even though you feel strongly about them, you don't have to be abrasive about it. Sorry we had to meet on these terms."

I am not; on the contrary, Im glad to meet keepers. Im sorry you took things so negatively.

" Im not going to try to figure out your reasoning, because it could be something as innocent as not wanting to buy a new cage, to something as sneaky as wanting this whole thing to happen in the first place and just coming on here saying you didnt. "

I mean, you make it sound like this is some conspiracy. I am not a child and I don't have any reason for lying, so before you go assuming, make sure you have the right type of person."


Now, im sorry, but you could EASILY have decided to come on this forum, claiming this was an accidental occurence in an attempt to avoid people getting too angry over the subject. As such, Im trying my best NOT to get angry over this- this is something I feel VERY strongly about; on the verge of this almost being what i would think of as a 'religious' matter. This is something that, as far as Im concerned, should have been avoided in the first place; and the fact that you come on asking for information about how to care for these hybrids makes me wonder further about your intentions... Im not assuming anything; but I take all things in this world with a pinch of salt.

Basically, what REALLY made me wonder was the fact that you said the animals had been housed together for about a year... why? You have a colony of crested geckos, yet dont respect that white line enough to give it a private, stress free environment? A year is a LONG time to just have a creature 'in between cages'; especially something like a white lined, which could easily be housed in a relatively small enclosure (as enclosures go). I mean, you do realize that, because of the way reptiles sexual organs are designed, it may well be possible for interspecies mating to damage one or both of the individuals, yes? That alone should have been enough to remove that animal; as what was happening to it was A. no doubt causing it undue strees, and B. could cause physical harm to it, and perhaps the male to boot.

"Only reason I haven't commented sooner, I don't feel that people who call me asinine without any aggression or name calling on my part really deserve my time."

If I made you think I was calling you outright assinine, well, didnt mean to. But I WOULD consider that slightly irresponsible- that animal should have been seperated a long time ago.

"But I do feel that you guys have been fairly rude, aggressive, and have assumed way to much. And I don't really feel as though I should have to defend myself to a post as simple as the one I put up."

Defending yourself and providing an explanation are different things, and perhaps you should try not to take things quite so confrontationally. I really wasnt trying to be mean to you or anything like that, but you placed a post regarding a hybridized animal- something that is looked down upon highly in most circles. You should have expected at least a somewhat negative reaction. Now granted, perhaps things were miscommunicated, and you took it as a personal attack- it wasnt (at least not from me).

I was simply stating my views on some of the things you had said regarding why you think its ok not to simply throw these eggs out now, and avoid all the risk inherent in trying to incubate them. Something Id still like answered-
how do you propose to know they are deformed before they hatch? Because they are already suffering long before that, if that IS the case. And what do you propose to do if they ARE deformed? THEN you dont have a problem killing them? Just so long as YOU got the chance to see if they MIGHT make something different?

"I didn't ask for opinions on making hybrids, b/c as I stated, "It was purely accidental."

Something people dont seem to realize- this is the internet; not a search engine. You post something here, its out there for everyone to see and respond to. You cant simply expect that only the people who think what you want, or have something positive to say about what you are doing, are going to respond. You have to expect people to respond, especially when you are talking about something that many people look down upon 100% (myself included).

Whether you did this accidentally is irrelevent. Rather than seperating the animals and moving on, having learned that you shouldnt house species together like that; you have chosen to attempt to hatch these eggs. This means that you have now chosen to take things to the next step. It no longer matters whether you did it on purpose or not- its there, and you are furthering it. The same results can occur in both scenarios, so it dosnt really matter at this point whether you initially wanted to have this happen or not.

"Basically, its rape. And for the record, YES, i DO agree with abortion if the child is the result of a rape. (while I realize that much of reptile mating could be seen as rape from this perspective; i see interspecies mating as a different matter, as likely the female knows that something isnt right with the situation, but cannot do anything due to being overpowered by said horny male- ive handled both adult male crestys and adult white lined, and there would be no problem for a large male cresty to overpower and mate with a female white line) "

Ok, first, your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But before you make that comment, did you think about the fact that the majority of Reptile breeding that takes place has a male pinning down and overpowering the female?? Kingsnakes, *CRESTEDS*, Leopard Geckos, Beardeds sometime. Atleast make your arguments make sense."


While I realize that much of reptile mating could be seen as rape from this perspective; i see interspecies mating as a different matter, as likely the female knows that something isnt right with the situation, but cannot do anything due to being overpowered by said horny male- ive handled both adult male crestys and adult white lined, and there would be no problem for a large male cresty to overpower and mate with a female white line.

What i mean by that is, in nature, a female white lined would have the oppurtunity to escape an aggressive male of another species- but due to being confined, that option was removed. Wherever that gecko ran, that male likely followed; until the white lined was worn down to a point of being easily catchable.

Ive watched my pictus mate, and while it can seem rough at times, the females often appear to be 'allowing' it to happen- they could scurry off around their cages, male attached; or fight/struggle violently... but they dont. They sit and they take it. Ive seen the same thing with anoles. When I introduced a male bahama anole, he attempted to mate a couple times with the female green. As a result, I removed the female and gave it to a friend; because I would often hear the female struggling to get away from the bahama- something she didnt do with the other green anole males. I would assume that white lined likely did the same when that cresty got ahold of her; and depending on size, she just might have been able to struggle enough to break free and scurry off.... or at least, she could in nature. In the cage though, she may do that a number of times before she simply does not have the phsyical strength left to fight off the advances of this foreign male.

Geckos arent THAT stupid- most can see in some level of color (including ultraviolet), and use visual keys to discern species- that white lined likely had no doubt that this was NOT a male with which she was supposed to be mating, according the instinctual 'rules' nature has implanted in its brain, and put up at least SOME effort to avoid what was going to happen- she has every reason to, as it could cause her physical harm in more ways than one.

The end result is, a female being forced into mating against her will, which would also be known as 'rape'; and while much of reptile mating appears to be 'against the will' of the female, I dont think it really is- as they dont seem to struggle nearly as much with a male of their own species as they do with a male of another species. And thats my reasoning behing that statement- just to reclarify things.

I believe that arguement makes, at very least, SOME sense. If its beyond your understanding (and i dont mean that insultingly, maybe just that i didnt explain it well enough), I cant really do anything more to explain it; nor do I really care to.

You dont SEEM to be looking to do anything shifty- if what you say if true, then you are just a keeper who had a freak 'accident' occur. But, whereas I would feed those eggs to another animal, or simply crack them and put them outside for the ants, in an attempt to avoid the 'nastier' results that could come about (deformed/mutated babies, healthy babies that in turn could lead to dilution of the gene pool , etc.) you have chosen instead to take the next step in trying to bring these creatures into the world- despite the fact that it can really result in nothing truly positive. Thats irresponsible in my opinion... but hey, thats only my opinion.

As of the moment, I dont see this as an arguement- Im doing my best to be civil, and I think youve done the same. We are simply discussing something as people who share a common hobby. Try not to take things so personally- understand that none of these views has a thing to do with YOU; but more to do with what you are planning to DO.


   

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