Hi Richard and Jerry;

What a terrific trip! Would love to see the slide show. With all respect due to the paper and the researchers Richard quoted I have always felt Leopard Tortoises were a family of many species. Perhaps ten or more.

The theory stems from comments of an old (in his 80's!) tortoise breeding customer and from the fact many "pairs" never reproduce, or in some groups the males reproduce with one female but not the others, all the while sibling groups seem to breed well, in the same colony and care. Plus, with different sizes, shapes and color patterns all over east Africa it lends credibility to the theory.

With respect to genetic surveys I have to ask "are you sure?". We all know that genetics can identify an individual. This is done by looking at all the "base pairs" and comparing similarities and differences. To identify a specie (or species group) we must leave out some portion of the base pairs. If the researcher chooses the wrong subset of base pairs to examine (or leave out) they will erroneously make a bad conclusion.

Years ago I was party to a "blood survey" performed at a Texas University of all species chelonia. I donated genetics from Sandy Ververka's collection. This survey concluded that all aquatic north American turtles were the same specie, except for the snappers, the wood turtle group and diamondback terrapins. Blandings, redears, cooters, redbellys, maps, painteds, western ponds were deemed all one species. To anyone familiar with these species this is clearly incorrect and the error has to be the researchers. He|| if they are all the same species how did they all stay so well segregated in the waters in which many forms co-exist?

I make no judgement on the genetic study Richard refers. Just wanting to add food for thought.

Ethiopan giant tortoises! Who woulda thunk it? I'll bet Helen Cain's 97# male came from there. That shell was HUUUGE!!

Richard and Jerry, please, show us more pix from the trip!

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