return to main index

  mobile - desktop
follow us on facebook follow us on twitter follow us on YouTube link to us on LinkedIn
 
Click here to visit Classifieds
Locate a business by name: click to list your business
search the classifieds. buy an account
events by zip code list an event
Search the forums             Search in:
News & Events: Kingsnake returns to Tinley . . . . . . . . . .  kingsnake.com joins Monitor Brains! . . . . . . . . . .  Sneak Peek . . . . . . . . . .  Amphibian gut bacteria showing promise in cancer research . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Meet The Baroness - The world's longest snake . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Updates? . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  The mechanics behind the viper strike . . . . . . . . . .  Snakes on a Train? . . . . . . . . . .  Tracking the animals in the Florida Everglades - Meet the Croc Docs . . . . . . . . . .  Reintroduction attempts give San Francisco Garter a second chance . . . . . . . . . .  Promoting Reptiles is Our Jam Man . . . . . . . . . .  Origins of Chytrid discovered . . . . . . . . . .  Wisdom Wednesday - The Forums - The water is warm... Come on in! . . . . . . . . . .  Kingsnake.com Past, Present and Future . . . . . . . . . .  IHS Celebrates 50 years . . . . . . . . . .  End of January 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Fun Fact Friday - Green Tree Monitor . . . . . . . . . .  The Evolution of the Osteoderm discovered . . . . . . . . . .  PACNWRS Expo Jan 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Diamondback discovered in new Texas county for first time . . . . . . . . . .  Expo Setup . . . . . . . . . .  Reptiles greater than Golden Globes . . . . . . . . . .  Meander Monday . . . . . . . . . .  Update: Release mobile friendly!! . . . . . . . . . .  Reptile Super Show Pomona California . . . . . . . . . .  Kingsnake.com at Pomona Reptile Super Show . . . . . . . . . .  PACNWRS - Apr. 18-19, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - Apr 18, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 19, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Bay Area Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 24, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - April 25, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Big Sky Reptile Expo - April 25-26, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Greater Cincinnati Herp Society Meeting - May 06, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  CRE - May 16-17, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - May 16, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - May 17, 2026 . . . . . . . . . . 

full banner - advertise here .50¢/1000 views
Click here for Dragon Serpents
pool banner - $50 year

RE: Is Replacing Paraphyletic Taxa with Contrived Taxa Scientific Progress?

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Taxonomy Discussion ] [ Reply To This Message ]
[ Register to Post ]

Posted by: CKing at Thu Jan 1 23:34:33 2004  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by CKing ]  
   

"The system of nomenclature is independant of methodology."



Quite correct. A cladist can, for example, recognize paraphyletic taxa, as a few of them have done. But these cladists are viewed with suspicion, as Mayr and Ashlock point out, by other cladists. Conversely, a systematist may adhere to Hennig's classificatory practice by recognizing only taxa consisting of one ancestor and all of the descendants of this ancestor even though his/her tree is based on distance data, which is categorically rejected by the cladists.



I am not referring to tree building or interpretation. I am referring to the fact that different taxonomists can classify animals quite differently even when both are basing their classification on the same tree or set of phyletic relationships. A taxonomist who tolerates paraphyletic taxa, for example, may recognize a paraphyletic Clemmys for the 4 North American species of emydid turtles, whereas a Hennigian may splinter the 4 species of Clemmys into two or more genera. This is the case because taxonomy is independent of systematic methodology.



"Exceptional cases while interesting do not help the majority of science."



Science is based on the accumulation of facts. Every little bit helps.



"Also one of the biggest difficulties with cladistics is weighting. If you sequence a gene and come up with several hundred characters and then combine it with a morphological annalysis with say 50-100 characters you have a weighted and biased dataset, biased to DNA as it swamps the dataset. Geneticists argue that the morphology should be excluded altogether and later mapped on to the gene sequence trees and that fossil evidence should be excluded altogether as well.

Personally I call this manipulation of data."



Character weighting is a problem for systematists in general, not just cladistics. Darwinians argue that the cladists who weight all characters equally are just as subjective as one who gives each character a different weight. Clearly, some characters are more informative than others. For example, the way a turtle retracts its neck into the shell cannot possibly be given the same weight as, say, whether its plastron is hinged or not. Character weighting is therefore necessary, but it is not easy.



I agree that there is no justification for ignoring scientific data. Molecular trees can be corroborated with morphological characters and vice versa. I am not sure the practice of dumping all the molecular and morphological characters into the same dataset and finding the shortest tree will give a better result. It all boils down to the goodness of the characters, not whether they are molecules or morphological characters nor how many characters one uses. Given good characters, just a few of them will suffice. For example, the SINE characters that systematists used to link artiodactyls with whales, though few in number, have been very informative of relationships.




   

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Subscribe to this Thread ] [ Hide Replies ]


>> Next topic:  Morelia Discription... - Tormato, Sat Dec 13 06:29:22 2003
<< Previous topic:  Cytochrome b and the use for phylogenetic analysis? - wulf, Thu Dec 4 08:15:16 2003
Click here for Dragon Serpents Click here to visit Classifieds Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
KINGSNAKE.COM

Enjoy all our content free of charge with a user account that gives you full access to every feature. For added visibility, paid options are available - post in our Classifieds, showcase your business with Banner Ads or a Directory listing, promote reptile events, and more.

Quick Links
Community
Legal & Safety
Support

Register for free ✓ Sign up!

Kingsnake.com ® is a registered trademark © 1997-