return to main index

  mobile - desktop
follow us on facebook follow us on twitter follow us on YouTube link to us on LinkedIn
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research  
Click here for LLL Reptile & Supply
This Space Available
3 months for $50.00
Locate a business by name: click to list your business
search the classifieds. buy an account
events by zip code list an event
Search the forums             Search in:
News & Events: Herp Photo of the Day: Gopher Snake . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day: Snake . . . . . . . . . .  Suncoast Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 21, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Bay Area Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 26, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Calusa Herp Society Meeting - May 02, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Southwestern Herp Society Meeting - May 04, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Exotic Pets Expo - Manasas - May 05, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Greater Cincinnati Herp Society Meeting - May 07, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  St. Louis Herpetological Society - May 12, 2024 . . . . . . . . . . 
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
full banner - advertise here .50¢/1000 views
click here for Rodent Pro
pool banner - $50 year

RE: Since when did the facts matter to you?

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Taxonomy Discussion ] [ Reply To This Message ]
[ Register to Post ]

Posted by: CKing at Tue Apr 13 18:50:55 2004  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by CKing ]  
   

Facts do matter. That is why I do not ignore immunological data, unlike Troy.

Troy has kindly provided us with a nice photograph of one of his animals. He claims that it is a wild caught L. alterna from the Davis Mountains. If so, perhaps he should publish this piece of evidence, since facts are indeed very important.

That said, I am willing to give Troy the benefit of the doubt and I have discussed at length how such a discovery will affect my theory that L. mexicana became extinct and became replaced by L. alterna. Rather than addressing my arguments, Troy has chosen first to ignore them and now he has misrepresented them. I will repost the arguments I made below and let the readers judge for themselves whether Troy has answered the points I made.

I will not, for the time being, contest troy h's claim that someone has collected an alterna without a silvery gray iris. I will instead try to figure out what such a find, if it were authentic, would do to my theory of how L. mexicana transformed into L. alterna.

Of course, if it were a fake, then it would not change my theory. Assuming, however, that it is real, I will see what effects it will have on my theory.

1. It is a mutant. Mutations happen sooner or later. If it is a mutant then it has no effect on my theory. In fact, it supports my contention that the silvery gray iris (or iris color in general) in L. alterna is a selectively neutral character that became fixed because of founder effect speciation, because the ancestor of L. alterna went through a genetic bottleneck when its population crashed at the end of the last ice age, when west Texas turned from woodland into desert.

2. It is an individual L. mexicana that is from a remnant, previously unknown population of L. mexicana in Texas. Even if that is the case, it only proves my hypothesis that L. mexicana once existed in Texas and that it is now absent from most of its original range, including the site where van Devender found vertebral material in packrat middens. My theory is one that is consistent with the fossil record. If anyone has an alternative theory, they still would have to explain how alterna originated and where and how it replaced L. mexicana if the formation of the Chihuahuan Desert was not the cause of such replacement.

3. It is an alterna that has reverted to the ancestral condition in iris color. That possibility, once again, does not affect my theory since it supports my contention that L. mexicana once existed in west Texas and that it has since been replaced by L. alterna. A reversion to an ancestral condition simply proves that L. alterna is derived from L. mexicana, which is my theory.

If none of these scenarios would falsify my hypothesis, then what would? Since my theory is a scientific one, it makes predictions, which are in turn falsifiable. One prediction made by my theory is that genetic variation among the many different populations of L. alterna is low, much lower than the amount of variation among different populations of, say, L. mexicana or L. pyromelana. Hence a finding that L. alterna genetic variation is high would indeed falsify my theory.

Hence I am quite amused to see troy h do the online equivalent of a victory dance (and his comrades dancing along with him) even though his finding that a Davis Mountain L. alterna with a non-silvery gray iris, even if it were authentic, really has no effect on my theory of the origin and evolution of L. alterna.

PS I really would like Troy to explain how the silvery gray iris evolved in L. alterna, if the ancestor of L. alterna did not suffer a population crash and then went through a genetic bottleneck. Tell us how the silvery gray iris is apparently so adaptive that it has replaced the ancestral golden brown iris
completely (with but one possible exception) over the entire range of L. alterna.


   

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Subscribe to this Thread ] [ Show Entire Thread ]


<< Previous Message:  Since when did the facts matter to you? - troy h, Mon Apr 12 23:36:54 2004 image in post