First, in your first paragraph, you mention that I said, its not 100%. I did not say that. I said, its never failed for me. But I would not be surprised if it did. That is not saying its not 100%. Then you mention Chaos. Yes, there is tons of Chaos, but that is with the people. Just like you did. You change what is written to fit your thoughts. As well as you and science changes observations in nature to fit the humans and not fit the monitors. Sir the humans are the Chaos. I can explain how human Chaos effects raising monitors.

About being close minded, I try not to be, thats how I became successful, I opened my mind to the actual animals.

I practice this first, read about it second or third(I would rather watch amazing race). I have gathered as many papers and books as I could in the begining and read them 100 times each. Hmmmmmmm at least over and over. The problem was, there were very very few bits of information that actually applied to the captive keeping and breeding of monitors. At least successfully. There were a handful of papers that were on captive breeding. In these cases, I read them, then visited the setups. Be it a private keeper in Germany, or a zoo in Holland or Germany, or a zoo in texas. I actually went and visited. I also spend 14 trips and over a year in Australia. With a few visits to other monitor containing countries.

So Close minded, no, practical yes. On this forum, my original battle may have started with me telling Mr. Sweet, his papers were of no value to my projects. Hmmmmmm he asked, what am I suppose to say. They weren't and he admitted the papers were not designed to be useful for captive breeding.

Now that I am very experienced and have practiced the keeping, breeding, raising, and so on and so on and so on with varanids, WHY would I care if science explains to my liking or otherwise what I have done on a daily basis for years. Its kinda like some academic telling a farmer in Iowa, that science finally figured out how to grow corn and is trying to tell the farmer how or explain what the farmer has been doing for years.

Heck science could come up with a different way, or even a better way. But the farmer has been growing corn for his whole life. Why would he be excited. Maybe a little is the new way was of use.

What would excite me is, if science came up with something that actually solves problems. That would be cool. AND USEFULL.

You see, there are many kinds of varanid fans, the ones who love monitors and live in a verbal /written world(The sweets and possibility you) a world that each bit of information is based on and extented from the last bit of information. A world of pictures and text, About how each book or paper relates back to the previous books and papers. A world based on supposition and theory. A world of authors and a heritage of authors. Sir, there is nothing wrong with that. Go for it.(not exactly my world)

BUT, and I use the word but, correctly this time. There are other types of varanid fans too. Like many of the folks on these keeping forums. They are interested in all that literature, but more interested on the animals and the wonder of the animals themselves. Not so much what people think about the animals, just the wonder of the "real" animal sitting in front of them. Even if the stupid papers were right(big if) it would be like reading the last chapter of a book first. I think the intend is to read the book, keeping animals is the book. I want to have the last chapter be the last chapter. But then the papers mostly have nothing to do with the last chapter, so no worries.

Of course each group of these people is also divided up into smaller groups. Of course I am a member of a small rare group that actually is interested in how the animal performs, how its design actually works. Their potential, their range of potentials. The real animal, not what someone says about it. Heck, it would be interesting if science actually came up with something that is real, but I would still like to "SEE" it myself. To see it is far more important, then reading about it.

So Closed minded, I get the feeling that applys to you. Your being closed minded to the actual practice of applied techniques of successful varanid husbandry and keeping. You somehow thing, that papers are the horse and monitors are the cart. The reality is, the monitors are the horse, and science is the cart. Science is following the horse, always, science is after the fact. IT does not pull the cart, the animals do. The sad part is, science is mostly been studying what comes out of that little hole in the back of the horse, or at least it reads that way.

About turtles. Hmmmmmmmmmm you do understand, you can temp sex turtles and only recieve a high percentage of the desired sex. This is commonplace. Its only increases a certain sex, not completely controls it.

Also, science and turtle hatchers have gone batty, in my mind. As far as I can tell, most if not all TEMP sexed reptiles are shallow nesters, that is, they nest close to the surface.(remember I am an old simple Iowa corn farmer) Which if one uses some simple common sense, has to have a temperature fluctuation. These type of eggs were never intented to be incubated at a constant temp, either high or low. In practice, if you incubate at temps that fluctuate between the temps that causes females and the temps that cause males, you get BOTH. As nature intented. Varanids are deep nesters, at least most species. The temps have less fluctuation naturally. But still some. In practice, I do not worry if the temps are, 84.32571 or 84.32572. I normally let the temps fluctuate five to ten degrees. Its normal after all. Nature does not have thermostats. If you use the bean on your shoulders, you should have the sense to know that something buried 18 inches to 24 inches in the ground and was there over several seasons, day, in the sun and night, not in the sun, would have some degree of fluctuation. Or you can do what I did, I checked.

Your last paragraph exhibits your naivity, If you have decades of experience with anything, what would you think of someone handing you a paper on something you saw, and succeeded with, ten years ago. You would read it, hold it up and go, Hmmmmmmmmm and say, about time. Then throw it in the stack of other useless papers. I am sure that is interesting to somebody, somebody who doesn't actually do it, but lives in the above world of theory and supposition.

No offense, but to sell monitors, means you buy imports and have extra, so you sell them. Or you breed them, thru supportive husbandry and have extra. In any case, its about having extra. I would be a fool to give them away, considering the cost of keeping varanids. So I sell the extra. I keep the ones I want(way to many) buying monitors from me is like prying a candy bar out of a kids hands. I still think monitors are candy bars.

That you think its about commerical and this and that, is so darn naive on your part is funny. The truth is, it does not matter. IF there was a giant commerical business breeding monitors, they would still have to apply husbandry to allow recruitment(recruitment is the basis of exsistance) RECRUITMENT is natural and needed without such, life forms become extinct. In captivity and nature. To reproduce is the minimum requirement for exsistance, not the maximum. It also is the minimum requirement for captive exsistance.

WHat I find appauling is, people think its doing something extra to breed monitors. ITS NOT EXTRA, its the minimum. So I say in retaliation. GET a life and figure out what the minimum is, and support these captives at least to the minimum. Consider, varanids have been and are reaching the minimum for tens of thousand of years to now, with no help and lots of hinderance from man. What how hard can that be?

Chaos, yes theres Chaos, only its not about the animals, its about the people. They cannot seem to keep or put simple ducks in a row. Its so darn simple to breed monitors, I do not understand how to stop them. In actual fact, the only way to stop them is to kill them. Which is what 99% of the people that have them are doing, THEY ARE IN THE PROLONGED ACT OF KILLING THEM. So there you have it, Chaos is a people thing. If somehow they realize they are not doing the right thing, they fight, call names, become combative, etc. Hence you have this forum. Cheers

[ Show Entire Thread ]