Posted by:
Jeremy Stone
at Fri Apr 14 14:43:05 2006 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Jeremy Stone ]
My posts always seem to go to the bottom, and not where I was intended to post to a certain person.
After reading some of the posts today, I have thought more about the subject. First of All, I sense that you have some frustration in defending your integrity about this with not having a Hypo male in the litter. That is sad, and I would hope that NOBODY calls you out in a disrespectful manner in this. We know that you will handle your business with INTEGRITY, and that is what you have stood for in the past, and there is NO reason to assume that would change. Your post really has helped many realize different possibilities of what can happen. I am sorry if you in anyway felt that people questioned your integrity. That shouldn't happen. So, please don't feel that I was doing that, and if anyone else did. Shame on them.
What Bill Kirby said made great sense to me. IF you are certain no other male would be the sire, then what he said HAS to be the result. I don't think there could be any other conclusion. I have a few reasons why I believe what he said to be true.
FIRST, I have had many litters from the same parents year after year. Yes, a few of those have been hypos too. The reason I would think it wouldn't be the Jungle father is because of the looks of the litter from years past. You also brought up the point about them looking like Salmon Jungles. You asked the question if they are Jungles and Salmon jungles and wanted opinions on the matter from Jungle breeders. The only reason I brought up the Hypo Male is because they look more like Super Salmons then Salmon Jungles, and the normals look like Salmon Poss Dom siblings more then anything. Even those have a JUNGLE look. Even some of the Harlequin Hypos have a jungle look, so that could be the result.
Second: Bill Brought up the point about Results. He is right. Look at the Bad odds I have had many times with Blizzards. Also, I'll give 3 examples of other litters that were MINDBLOWING. IN 1997 I bought a group of DH striped Albinos from Pete. I sold a local guy one of the female DH's. He bred them to an Albino Poss het Stripe. The female gave birth to 29 babies. OF the 29, there were NO Albinos, not a SINGLE ALBINO, and there were Striped Boas in the litter, so the Male was a Het, and the Mom was at least a HET STRIPE. That same year I produced from the Sister and had Albinos, so for some reason we thought Pete must have mixed up some breeding and accidentally sold me just a HET stripe female instead of a DH stripe. Pete was very professional, and told me to breed it one more year, and if nothing happened he would work something out. Two years went by. I was convinced the female was just a het stripe. I bred her to a DH sunglow and in 2002; I produced Sunglows from this female. I was FLOORED!!!! She was a Het. I then thought the kid I sold her to before may have bred her to a different male to get 29 babies, however, there were striped babies in the litter, and all he had was an Albino Male poss het stripe. Here is anther WHACKY think about that litter. Of the 29 babies, 27 were MALE!!!!!!! I have had a few other litters, that the sexes were WAY off. One litter of 17 babies was all females.
I have had other experience with HUGE bad odds but that is the biggest litter with bad results. Pete has had something similar too. IF I can remember right, he had albino to het and had 25 plus and only 1 was albino. There are a few other examples of this.
LAST: Here is why I would lead to the conclusion of what Bill said about being a Motley litter. I have had a few Hypo to Motley litters. IN two litters in particular, the Hypos that came out were INSANE. They look like SUPERS. Some of the Best Hypos I have ever seen for being f1's. I didn't have nearly as many as you did, but if you saw a couple of these at 2 years, you'd swear they were dominant salmons with AMAZING weird SIDE colors. So, that is a possibility.
I can never say for SURE. You could do some DNA tests, but that would be PRICY!!! I would believe if those are the only two options that it would have to be the Motley.
Back to the Jungle issue. Those babies do resemble some Jungle characteristics, but a lot of other NON jungles do too, and that is why the Jungle gene is sometimes so confusing for so many people. Since the babies don't look anything like the last years litter, I would even be more sure that that can't happen. Also, there have been some studies on BOA Sperm Retention. There was a Great Symposium in Orlando on the issue, and one of the Vets said Boa Sperm couldn't live longer then 8 months, so the only way you could have a VIABLE litter retained is if the female went EARLY. That was his studies, but he could be wrong too. I have never seen it personally, but I have seen retention as long as 4 months.
In closing, I would like to say Thank you very much for sharing. I think many of us are afraid to openly discuss things for fear of people taking in the wrong way and making judgments. Experience is the BEST teacher. I know that I have bred and still will sometimes use different males. I don't necessarily PRIME them, but in certain circumstances if a Male POOPS out, I'll put in a different male to get the female to go. It is risky, and it is one of the greatest ways to pass disease, but I feel I know my animals well, and have taken that risk, and probably still will in the future. Just in a different way.
Your openness is respected, and I think you guys are awesome for sharing this stuff.
I'll open another can of worms here.
I'm glad I have delta with BADD LITTERS, Females dying, Males tails getting gain Green and dying after over breeding. I'm glad I have dealt with Sicknesses and used many different husbandry techniques. Many worked, and some failed, and I have lost a LOT of animals due to my learning over the years.
I'm glad I have sent MANY dead snakes for necropsies to learn, and that I have had respitory cultures done to help me understand how I can do better in the future. People are afraid to say they have had problems in past because they feel it will only hurt them, but I say if you haven't had PROBLEM YET, you certainly will. These are LIVE ANIMALS!!!! And if you haven't had many of those things happen, then you really aren't that experienced. (NO OFFENSE). So, for you to share info on death, and other things, only make me respect you more.
For anyone to say they KNOW it all, or they have the "PERFECT" system, is wrong. I feel I have a GREAT grasp on things, and the only reason I can say that is because of all the heart ache of the problems I discussed above. Now I feel I have some of the best husbandry around, but it always ALWAYS can get better.
I hope you have a great weekend, and thanks again for your posts.
Again, just my opinion.
Jeremy Stone
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 Celia.... I wanted to respond, but... - Jeremy Stone, Fri Apr 14 14:43:05 2006
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