Hello Grant,

Great to see your post.

I agree with most of what you had to say about the protein and fat contents. And the information about soy should be valuable to anyone interested in trying the dog food as a substitute rodent feed.

We use both Dog Food and Rodent Feeds. I have done so for more than 11 years...NO PROBLEMS, not with rodents or reptiles.

And yes, the rats and mice do seem to prefer the dog food over the rodent diets.

I personally always prefer to select a lower fat content, as it seems that higher fat makes the rodents a little "messy".... if you know what I mean?

I also notice that higher crude fiber seems to be a good choice....cages are not as messy with higher fiber content.



On a side note...I was not trying to get anyone's panties in a bind. The nature of my post was to be informative.



Grant, I believe you may have even asked Dave for some factual data to back up what he stated about FOOD COLORING causimg kidney failure.

And the answer posted back (in reply to your question) was pretty vague.



We were merely looking for verifiable facts.



Red dyes used in food products (same type used in human or animals) are cleared by the FDA. I think I would rather make my choices based on THEIR extensive research.

(Just don't sweeten your rodent's food with saccharine...as we ALL know this causes cancer in Lab rodents! LOL.)



If red dye caused renal failure, the rodents would be affected as well. But, for them to metabolize the dye, be fed to your snakes, and then cause the snakes to have renal failure...is a little far fetched.



We are all aware of how predators can pick up toxins from their prey items....(example:Raptors getting DDT from other birds, which got the toxins from eating insects sprayed by the insecticide.

But the other birds were also affected by DDT.)



I have personally fed some groups of rodents on a strictly dog food diet (WITH RED FOOD COLORING) and others on Rodent Diets, just to see if the rats had a difference in growth and production. I can afford more expensive feeds, but I was curious to see if there was actually a difference. I am the first to admit I am not a scientist...I did this to answer my own questions.

There is not much of a difference, other than price and the fact that rodents (when given a choice) seem to prefer the dog food.



Now, I prefer chocolate over Brussel sprouts. But this does not mean that I should make chocolate my dietary staple. (I am willing to try that experiment as well!!!)



I also wanted to see if the rodents would become obese or if they would have a greater propensity for mammary cancer tumors. I wanted to see any possible changes in production.

There was NO real difference.

As well, there was no difference in the health of the reptiles... (which were fed rats, which ate dyed dog feed.)



I have been involved in the reptile trade for 20 yrs...more than 11 as a State Licensed Business. Never a case of death due to renal failure.



(Some antibiotics, like Amakacin can cause crystallization in the nephretic tubules of the glomerulus...in the kindey. This will lead to renal failure...and eventually death of the animal. This is why they advise you to only inject in the cranial first third of the snake's body...and to insure proper hydration when using an antibiotic like Amakacin. I personally would never use Amakacin or Genecin/Gentamiacin, as there are better and safer antibiotics available to choose.)



One case of renal failure should not be attributed to red dye #5....when more than 11 years of use have not shown a problem.

I am not saying that Dave did not suffer a loss from kidney failure. I am saying that red food coloring was not the cause of the problem....

As well, I am sorry for Dave's loss...whatever the cause.



To verify my point I did speak to a great EXOTIC Animal Vet. (Dr. Paul Bingham, DVM at Redstone Animal Hospital) and he assured me that Red Dye #5 is quite safe in either mammals or reptiles. (humans included)

He also said that in order to prove that the renal failure in Dave's animal could be attributed to the food coloring you would need to do a lengthy research project with LOTS of SUBJECTS and MANY years of study. (Not to mention $$$$) (Already cunducted by the FDA.)

Dr, Bingham said the problem is that the dyes were previously metabolized....just as I had suspected, and VERY little (if anything) will be passed along to the secondary consumer....your snake.

I am certain that Dave is wise enough to see that this is not an attack.

This is an attempt to provide good INFORMATION.

Verifiable information.

Grant, it was great to read your post! Hope to see more.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

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