Posted by:
FR
at Fri Aug 17 10:17:59 2007 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by FR ]
Interesting, While you are allowed to say whatever you want, It would have been interesting if you told Jeff that you were having fun and actually enlightening many about "an" actual zoo experience. And you learning while your at it. Which I believe you have and are. I know I have from your recent visits.
Instead of challanging the "same old stuff" statement. You simply say, hi. to bad. It really is not the same is it?
The reality is, its not the same old stuff, your attitude is not the same. You came and admitted you want to learn. Also that your success was not were you wanted it. Which was very refreshing. Thats why most come here. Now you are one of us. Instead of coming and only defending yourself/sans results.
The old days were loaded with zoo folks teaming up and defending themselves with very little in the way of results and lots in the way of attempts.
Which is clearly the same for both husbandry and conservation. Its not attempts that count, or failures for that matter, its successes that count. Key paragraph here.
While I admire all those who attempt to learn, educate and conserve. ITs still the successes that are important. Not the talking about or even what your attempting, the important part is completing what you start and accomplishing set goals. Which so far are very much missing.
You see, even on an individual level, the differences between a good keeper or a poor keeper, a good zoo or a poor zoo(program) is the successes, a good private breeder or a poor one, is the quality of your results, not that your simply attempting to do something. An example here is, a newbie with two ackies, then saying they are an monitor breeder. Or refering to their two monitors as a breeding pair, when in reality, they never produced offspring. Really, if done innocently, its only a case of naivity.
In my comparisons with Dallas zoo, I never "hated" the keepers, but questioned the successes(results) For instance, your zoo(not you, you were not there?) hatched a greys and it immediately died. They had a colony of Greys over 20 years(pers. comm. Winston Card) That resulted in that one failed hatchling. And nearly the same for Blacktrees. Again, nothing against the keepers. What I have always questioned was the publishing of information as successful successful information, when it resulted in a dead offspring. To me, that was wrong. That is what I questioned and that is what I used to achieve higher goals.
I wanted information about husbandry that resulted in generations of offspring, from a pair. And in a relatively short time. You know, the time it takes them normally in nature.
Not to beat this to death, your successes would amount to extinction. Both in captivity and in nature. Monitors produce explosively or they disappear. Again both in nature and in captivity. We knew that about nature, but its new information about captivity.
And yes, using your zoo, as what not to do, worked very well. As you "now" know or should know, all monitor species are explosive reproductively. So now you have a new goal to achieve.
You see, its not all about the exact details of husbandry, but understanding the goals and their abilities.
Which is why I rag on ISP programs and zoo stuff. Because they limit reproduction and that is not natural. If you or they can explain that to me, I would love it. How can limiting a species abilities and reproduction, help a endangered species?
You see, once you do that, you leave the relm of your mission(endangered species program) and enter weird human behavior areas. Maybe the same kind of thoughts that caused the problem to start with, but who knows.
What I do know is, If Greys monitors is your project, your goal is to maximise their breeding to their potential. Produce numbers that would be produced by their wild counterparts if they were unhindered by human destruction. And on supportive conditions(non drought and such years)
The reasons for that is very clear. Lets make it simple, TWO ADULTS, a pair, do not occupy one area. The reality is, two adults produce as much as they can so that two adults can remain in that area. Not necessarily the same adults. That would be minimum reproductive ability. The reality is, two adults in nature, produce as much as they can so that they can expand in range and support other species that feed on them. That is the reality. A normal day to day task is, to overpower depleted numbers with more numbers. And yes, its all about numbers. With that in mind, a reproductively limiting approach to conservation is very naive.
If we are still talking greys, their clutch sizes and numbers are about the same as other monitor species of their size. So I expect their survival rate to be the same, normally. Which means, Greys should be on par with all other species. Again a goal you should think about, if you haven't already.
Again, back to the start, Its results that would be of benefit, not attempts.
By the way, You know how JeffL likes to say how I chase all those experts off. I do giggle over that. Come on now, Is it me? or is it my results that chase them off. Yes, I boneheadedly shove results down their throats, but really, isn't that what this is all about? And is being a bonehead so bad? You see, it could not be me, if I attempted to smack them around, I would simply break my computer hmmmm or my hand. So yes, this running them off thing is very silly. It's just Jeff playing his silly games. I believe its more about jealousy, but hey, I could be wrong as I really do not even take the time to think about it. If they want to run, perfect. Thats a natural behavior too. I take this bad, how could you folks practice a perfectly human behavior?
This is how i define academics. Those without or not caring about results, TO BE ACADEMIC. I believe that is in the old dictionary. So yes, results has to chase off academics. another key paragraph.
Now for some fun, of those academics that later become successful, That still do not come back. Its more about, human behavior, they understand, if they come back, they will be on my side, and that scares them. So far, anyone and everyone who has had continued success with varanids, do pretty much the same thing. Of course, theres many ways to do the same thing differently. Cheers
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RE: about your responce and more - FR, Fri Aug 17 10:17:59 2007