I don't frequent this forum much these days but check in from time to time to see old pals and what's going on and looks like an interesting thread. I find what Chris is saying makes sense but as has been pointed out the feasibility of a new cham owner setting up a glass enclosure there is more chance of error and death than in a screened one. Granted, not all newbies are going to listen to more experienced keepers, as Carlton, Eric and kinyonga - and even I (and I am sure you, too Chris)- know all too well after many years on this forum.



I got the majority of my knowledge from these very people in my early cham days not that long ago (2003). I am using the same 2x2x4' screen cage that I bought for my first chameleon (after starting her in a smaller one for a few months). She died at 2 years of age, not due to poor housing and not important for this thread.



I live in NH with dry cold winters and yes, the cage is in a free standing 3 sided cabinet and yes, I have plastic on three sides. I even keep it up year round. I use a humidifier in the winter and sometimes in other seasons. Cyrus, my panther, has a choice of two basking spots, a free range jungle gym out of the cage, his dripper, the humidifier when he needs it, the height for gradient, plenty of foliage a relatively cool house so he gets a drop at night year round. As it begins to get cooler – even now as we have a bit of a lovely cool snap – I cover his cage with a blanket to minimize the drop and slow it down after the lights go out, I do this with my beardie as well. This may be an extra step, but hey, scooping my cats litter box takes longer and is a lot more unpleasant but I would never dream of not doing it. We take on the responsibility of an animal, we take the extra steps. Cyrus eats, he's healthy, he's active and, allow me a bit of anthropomorphizing, he is a happy cham.



Could I maintain better humidity in an enclosure with glass? Sure. Is it a feasible thing for me? No. First, I do not have the money to purchase the needed size nor could I possibly manage to get something of its size and weight up the twisted stairs in my 275 year old house. But besides the $$, why should I bother when the plastic works just as well.



So I am not questioning your reasoning, I am just saying that if a keeper has devised something that works and keeps her chameleon healthy then I think telling a new owner to use a tank is risky. That said, if there is enough support from a keeper in Canada, the UK or elsewhere and IF the new keeper is intent on paying attention and following the advice then absolutely they should be supported in using a glass enclosure. As for experienced keepers discussing it and making changes, sure, but keep in mind that 95% (or more) of the members of this and other forums are inexperienced, new owners or ones (hopefully) doing their research BEFORE they purchase their first chameleon.



Just my two bits



Btw – hi everyone!



lele







>>But that is preciesly the point, using screened cages cannot be called either "right" or "wrong" in terms of the ease of providing good conditions without context. If I were keeping and breeding F. pardalis in south Florida I'd use outdoor screen cages during the warmer months and either move them to a greenhouse or make some other accomodations during the cooler months. On the other hand, if I were trying to maintain and breed Ch. deremensis or Ch. quardricornis in south Florida I'd probably keep them indoors or in a greenhouse with air conditioning. A free-air habitat makes sense for F. ousteleti in southern California, but it doesn't make much sense for C. parsonii, for example. In Michigan, where I used to live, most hotter climate adapted chameleons would have done well outdoors or with screening a few months a year, but not more than that. Beyond that and they really would do better in a more climate controlled area. Chameleons from higher elevations would be about the same--doing well outside or in screened cages during early and late summer (a bit too hot for them during mid-summer) but would need other accomodations during the rest of the year.

>>

>>Screen cages allow the ambient environment to greatly and directly dictate the envrionment inside the cages. If the chameleons are being kept in a climate similar to their own (or close enough) then this is fine and I see no problem at all. If, however, the chameleons need different environmental conditions from what occurs in the ambient, then screen becomes and obstacle to providing the proper conditions, not a boon.

>>

>>The problem is that most of us (myself included for many years) blindly recommend X, Y and Z (X being the use of screen cages) as the "proper" way to maintain these animals when really this my not always be the best way, and may be a decidely bad way to do it much of the time. It seems to me as though the hobby is still reeling from the effects of advice 20 years old. The proponents of that advice, so long ago, were convinced that the screen cages they used somehow allowed them to do things that other types of caging did not--that there was some special requirement the chameleons had for screened cages--when in reality they only requiement the chameleons had was for proper care and environmental conditions which just so happened to be coupled with screening. This never happened in Europe, and hence folks there have no compulsion to use screen cages with chameleons.

>>

>>If this didn't make a big difference to the success of people trying to keep chameleons, I don't think I'd really care one way or the other, but as I've mentioned, I've seen people killing chameleons more times than I care to BECAUSE they thought that screen was the only way to go. I've seen dehydrated little chameleons (despite a constant drip) housed at the same places that were keeping and breeding dart frogs and Uroplatus spp. geckos. Some chameleons would do so, so much better and be so much easier to maintain if their husbandry were approached in much the same way as dart frogs or Uroplatus spp. geckos or so many other species. It doesn't make sense to approach animal husbandry with the methods already decided and hope to reach the goal environmental conditions. It makes much more sense to have the goals clearly in mind and adopt the methods that make it easiest to reach those goals.

>>

>>Chris
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky

1.0 Beardie - Darwin

1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan

0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita

0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy

0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06

0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06

?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

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