The hardest thing about forums, Internet, is that one can't hear the tone of voice of the other, hear how things are actually being said, seeing facial expressions, etc...

My first reply to you must seem worse than what I had in mind while typing it. When I read Randy's reply I thought, "Oh no, it must sound harsh," and I didn't intend for it to. I went back & read it again but I still didn't think it did, but I know that could be due to my knowing what I meant, where other people may not.

At least you didn't all-out blast me. Ha! Ha! A bit feisty, spunky, but I like that. It shows strength in your beliefs. Now, I love a good debate and it’s hard for me to walk away from one. The problem is too many people take things personally, even though nothing personal may be said. If you can handle a friendly debate, one that we attack each other’s arguments, like we’ve both done thus far, and not attack each other, as they say at the beginning of an Ultimate Fighting Championship match, “Let’s get it on!” Ha! Ha!

However, if you can’t handle it and are easy to get your feelings hurt, please close your browser or find another post to read.


For the record, my main point was that most keepers these days are too obsessed with cleaning and try too hard to protect their captives, which sometimes can do more harm than good.

Now, I'm not bragging, by any means, I don't feel I have anything to brag about. I'm not a braggart, anyway. Not my style. But you have to realize that I've been keeping reptiles for nearly 40 years. Just a few months shy of 40yrs. Granted, not at the pace I'm at now, though. NOBODY has a 40-year lucky streak. Nobody. I must be doing something right.

I have never had to take an animal to a vet due to something I did or didn't do. When I was young & inexperienced (15) I took a newly acquired burmese to a vet for a respiratory infection he had when I got it. Several months ago I had to take a newly acquired bearded dragon to a vet for severe impaction that it had when I got it. (BTW, never keep a bearded dragon on the crushed walnut shells. The poor dragon didn't make it, even after $200 in vet bills.)

That's it! Two vet visits, 30yrs apart, within 40 years. Neither of which falls back on me. So don't listen to me, I don't know what the heck I'm doin'. Ha! Ha! Ahh, smile! Just pickin' at ya.

Please don't take this personal, I've nothing against you and I'm not trying to be a Mr. Smarty Britches. Heck, I don't have time for a debate, I'm a busy man. But, I do want to take the time to try to get people (and maybe not necessarily you) to realize what I'm talking about, about how some people carry things too far.


> > > If I had to use my water bowl for both drinking and soaking/defecating, I would want it disinfected between uses.

No offense, but if you had to use your water bowl frequently for soaking/defecating, your owner most likely has an illegitimate (screen) top for the aquarium you're being kept in. What kind of top do you have for the aquarium that your burm's soaking in?


You do realize that most of the time that's a sign of low humidity, which needs a large water dish as a bandaid. Not always, but usually.


> > > I don't know anybody that follows their animals around with microscopes or wears gloves when handling (unless to avoid being bitten), so I'm assuming you were just exagerating for dramatic effect.

Don't let the details get ya. Please note that in the 2nd sentence of the 9th paragraph of my first reply to you, as seen here: Reply, I stated; "I even know people that practically follow their reptiles around with a microscope..."

And in the 5th sentence of the 9th paragraph I stated; "...a keeper practically wearing a surgical mask & gloves..."

So, yes, I was obviously exaggerating for dramatic effect while also pointing out the hideousness of the subject.

Heh, I couldn't believe the microscope thing, either, when I first read it, straight from the horse's typed words. I kid you not! This woman claimed to be a bearded dragon expert, although she'd only kept one dragon for a little over a year. She said she checked every feces for parasites with a microscope and would pump that sucker full of napalm (or whatever) if she saw one. ("pump that sucker full of napalm" are my words, obviously, not her's.)


> > > In the wild they can move and don't have the risk of laying in soiled substrate. If we are going to confine them to tiny enclosures, the least we can do is keep it clean.

Now you're throwing hand grenades at the two hundred yard sniper target. Ha! Ha! Seriously though, who said anything about making a snake lay in soiled substrate, not cleaning up after them? I surely did not. Don't jump to conclusions, try to twist things around, or ignore all the keywords and scenarios I used. Sterilizing, hospitalizing, surgical mask & gloves. All representative of as germ-free of an environment as one could get.

Allow me to let you in on a lil' secret. "Clean" does not have to be sterile. I can clean water bowls with soap & water, water & brush, water & sand, water and....., well, more water.


> > > This is a weird statement, but I will try to address it. Reptiles are usually born healthy, but they don't stay that way without some good husbandry skills. To say that a healthy animal is not affected by germs or parasites is a flip-flop, because germs and parasites are what make animals not healthy.

If you think that one's weird just read more of my posts. There's plenty more where that one came from. Ha! Ha! I is who I is. I ain't who I ain't. I am me, Happy Hillbilly.

Germs/parasites:
You're close, but not quite close enough. We've gotta get you a rifle instead of those handgrenades. And NO, not for you to shoot me with. Hahahaha!!!

"they don't stay that way (healthy) without some good husbandry skills"
Correct.

"To say that a healthy animal is not affected by germs or parasites is a flip-flop,"
No John Kerry here. Far, far away.

"because germs and parasites are what make animals not healthy."
You're only looking at one aspect while I'm looking at two.

Are there not bad germs AND good germs? Bad organisms AND good organisms? When a healthy animal encounters bad germs/organisms, their body & mind is in tip-top shape and will effectively fight off the attack. Bank on it!!! It is only when their immune system is weak that they are unable to fight off an attack and are therefore affected by bad germs, parasites, etc... If an animal's immune system is weak, that said animal is NOT healthy. The human body works the same way.

So you see, by what you're saying, the ball python that I rescued last year should've been on it's death bed. It should've had caboodles of illnesses, infections, and whatnots.

The ball python was in an aquarium that hadn't been cleaned in over a year. A year's worth of feces & urates this snake was laying in. It was pitiful and stunk worse than my rat cages have ever thought about stinkin'. No scale rot, no mouth rot, no mites, no RI, even though it had the typical screen top. Hmmmmmmm. How could that be? Maybe because it was at least being fed & heated? Maybe it was actually as healthy as it appeared to be? Hmmmmmmm.


> > > keeping a cage clean and taking care of sick animals IS proper husbandry, not a "bandaid".

Here we go again. Are you going to try to tell me & the rest of the world that I said keeping a cage clean & caring for sick animals is NOT proper husbandry, that it's a bandaid? Are you trying to tell us that I spoke AGAINST cleaning cages? It's all in black & white in my first reply to you. I ask that you back up your insinuation or recant it.


> > > You can keep your cage as clean as a laboratory, but your animals will still get sick without proper temps and humidity.

BINGO!


> > > On the flip side, you can have the most precisely calculated humidity and temperature measurements and your animals will still get sick if you allow them to lay in bacteria-laden cages.

Wrongo! Point already made in previous paragraphs found within this post.


> > > Well, get ready. Inclusion Body Disease takes an average of around 30 days in incubate before symptoms become apparent.

Ha! I've been ready.

IBD - It's been awhile since I've read up on it so I may very well get something wrong here. I don't mind being wrong and I'm good about admitting it when I am.

Although 30 days may be the typical incubation period (I don't know, so I'll take your word on it), I'm pretty sure that there are known cases that have taken quite a bit longer. Oh, and that's just for a snake that's infected with it, that doesn't include carriers. Does it? No, it doesn't. Are you not aware that snakes can be carriers, showing no symptoms at all, and can pass it on many months later? And what good does your reducing quarantine to two months instead of 3 - 6 months do to safeguard against that? Is it really OK for you to reduce your quarantine period but not me?

For the record, I was informed that this rescued burmese python had absolutely no contact with any other snake for the whole 7yrs of it's life. IBD incubation period has timed out, unless we're setting a record here.

Details, you've got to pay attention to details. They're killing you. Please note that I said, "I'll tell you what. If you can name one thing that is guaranteed to show itself within a 3-month quarantine period that would not show up during a 2-week quarantine period,..."


> > > Not to mention that with only 1 1/2 weeks (like your newly acquired snake) you most likely can not see if it is shedding correctly (incorrect shedding can be a sign of disease).

Please expound on this. Just how many times have you known of a bad shed being caused by a disease?


> > > I'm not saying to follow your snakes around with microscopes and spend every single day cleaning the cages,

And I wasn’t implying that you did.


> > > …but I strongly believe that cages should be disinfected every time a snake defecates or passes urates,

So everyone with aspen bedding, soil, leaf litter, etc…, should dump it all out & disinfect the whole cage every time their snake defecates or passes urates?


> > > Most "experts" say to quarentine for as long as 6 months, but I'm not that fanatical about it.

So the experts are fanatics because they suggest 6 months instead of your 2 months? But, you’re not a fanatical because of your 2 months versus my 2 weeks? I’m just trying to make a point, that’s all. No, I don’t think your 2 months makes you a fanatic. As far as I know you’re not a fanatic.


> > > Things change when people develop better, more successful ways of doing things.

You know what I’m going to say, don’t you? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Ha! Ha! In the old days we built our own cages out of wood. You rarely saw snakes in aquariums with screen tops. We used regular soap & water periodically. There wasn’t any “antibacterial” soap.


> > > Bearded dragons, for example, thrive better, have better coloration, and seem to live longer when they are given access to UVA/UVB lighting.

Sorry, but I happen to know that you have absolutely no proof that bearded dragons thrive better or live longer with UVA/UVB lighting. None whatsoever. None exists. I challenge you to prove me wrong on it. I’ve read the reports, I’ve debated the issue before. Sure, you can go to many websites that any 13yr old can create & copy/paste assumptions all day long. But the fact remains that in the case of bearded dragons (staying in context, but I could go further) the best report admits insufficient evidence.


> > > People do things differently these days because they work better.

Oh, how I wish that were true. Can you explain to me where IBD, the adenovirus, and many other diseases common today were 40 years ago? I can tell you were they were not. But the stay more in context, I’m talking about how most of today’s generation of keepers are too obsessed with eliminating germs, bacteria, organisms, etc…, to where they’re actually killing the good ones, the ones that God created to combat the bad ones, naturally.

Let me ask you this since I see you have fish. Do you sanitize the whole tank every time you clean it? Do you vacuum up all organic matter under the gravel every time? Replace 100% of the water every time? Of course not! You would be getting rid of beneficial organisms. There really isn’t much difference.


> > > It might take a little more time and effort, but if your going to have animals, you should be willing to dedicate that time and effort to them.

Ha! Ha!

No offense, but I hardly believe that you’re the one that should be telling me that.

Here's a quick list of the majority of animals under my care.

1.7.0 burmese pythons (5 are babies from last clutch)
2.1.0 corn snakes
0.0.1 dumerils boa
0.0.1 ball python
0.0.1 leopard gecko
0.0.1 eastern box turtle (another recent rescue)
1.1.0 savannah monitors
1.0.0 nile monitor
1.0.0 american saddlebreed horse
0.1.0 mustang/quarter horse
1.1.0 german shepherds (breeders)
1.1.0 mutts
2.0.0 guinea pigs
1.0.0 quaker parrot
0.1.0 white broad breasted turkey (Happy Thanksgiving!)
12 rabbits
75-plus rats
And a few others...

(BTW, that’s not a bragging list, as it’s hardly anything to brag about. There are plenty of people here that can dwarf that list.)

With 40yrs experience, only two vet calls unrelated to my care, no deaths other than natural causes (other than the aforementioned beardie), and a list of animals directly under my care like that above, I am anxiously awaiting your record & level of experience. Maybe then will I listen to you instruct me on how to care for my animals.

OK, time to end this novel.

Bottom line:
I’m talking about how most of today’s generation of keepers are too obsessed with eliminating germs, bacteria, organisms, etc…, to where they’re actually killing the good ones, the ones that God created to combat the bad ones, naturally.

In the name of “prevention,” people are unnecessarily treating for parasites and killing all the beneficial organisms, only to have to turn right around and administer more medicine to help replenish the good that they just killed. Go figure!

If an animal has a severe parasite infestation, by all means, treat it, but not in the name of prevention. If a cage has urates and/or feces, you can simply spot clean it, it's OK. You can disinfect the whole thing on a regularly scheduled “thorough” cleaning. You don't have to call in the surgical scrub crew every cleaning.

I honestly do hope you're smiling and not fuming. And just because we don't agree on this issue doesn't mean they aren't millions of others that we can & would agree on.

Thanks for the debate!

Have a great day!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

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