Kingsnake.com - Herpforum - RE: peachies and cross pics(for mike too

Posted by: FR at Thu Nov 8 10:05:29 2007 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by FR ]

Your(many of U's) brain appears to have a big roadblock (in your thinking).

You'ss seem to have two distint errors, one gouldi also come from tropical areas. Two, that cage is neither in the tropical area or the outback. Its in Tylers house, or your home or Mikes home or my home, etc.

All of our(yours/mine/his) cages do not contain anything like Indo or the outback, And they never will. They only contain some dirt/substrate, walls, plants, lite bulbs, etc. None of which have anything to do with those countries.

For Mike, take your cage, you could put a gouldi in there and other then digging up all the plants, it would DO GREAT. In fact, it would do as well or better then your peachies. And without you doing anything different. Try it and then you can get some understanding.

You see the point I always make and ARGUE about is this, YOUR(U'ss) so prejudiced about labels(reading), you forget that all of these monitors are "just monitors". And you do not test the monitor. YOU test the books/conversation with others. If a book/or joe blow, says indo, you somehow duplicate WHAT YOU THINK INDO IS, without ever seeing what any monitor is doing in Indo. Or the outback, you decorate your cage like what you think the outback is, without ever seeing monitors in the outback.

Even worse, you do not test anything to see what actually does work. Like my suggestion, put a gouldi in your Peachie setup and SEE WHAT HAPPENS. In my humble experience, this is why it takes you(and U'ss, you guys) so darn long to achieve any success. You are STUCK in a paper rut. Which by the way, is fine, but its not necessary.

All you need to do is achieve basic varanid conditions and do some minor adjustments and then you can easily achieve maximun results and it has nothing to do with indo or oz or U.S. It has everything to do with the poor monitor in the cage.

Maybe another way to veiw this is, You seem to make cages to IMPRESS other people, whether its in book information or your "FRIENDs" or simply yourself. I make cages that impress the monitors I put in them. I have no need to impress people or follow a book. I try to impress the monitor and I go by what the monitor expresses, if they express progressive results, I continue to move in whatever that direction is. And no, I do not care what a book or a friend says. Or what species it is.

And Mike, your comment about Tylers peachies skin possibly being dry, indicating they are slighly dehydrated. Is most likely right, I will not argue that, its very possible and its so bloody dry here in tucson. But I suggest that the same is true for that gouldi cross as well. The cure is to mist the cage a little more often. Not think the monitors are totally different. Or think of the cage as indo.

Here in tucson the climate is not very consistant, in the monsoons, its very humid and we do not have to mist down cages very often, then fall sets in and it gets bone dry, and WE KEEPERS have to change our habits, we now have to mist more often or the dang cages dry completely out, and do so quickly.

The real point is, I and you can, keep a cage too wet or too dry, JUST BY OUR HABITS, and it has nothing to do with indo or the outback.

I know I am a little off on my thinking, but I am the one that has no problem breeding monitors. I do not think its about indo or africa or asian forest, or the topend or the dead center. ITs ALL about me doing the work of maintaining the cage for the monitor inside and not for some thought that cage represents those areas. That type of thinking, is so very very naive. If you have been to those areas and then looked at your cage, you would have a good laugh. Your cage is not those areas and never will be. And further more, it should not be. Those areas contain some nasties that keep those monitors in line.

The sad part is it is all about basic biology. Lets use a sic anology. Take our kangaroo rats. There are several species, all do not need to drink water. They get their water from their food. Then they do not expend water needlessly. They live in our dryest deserts like Yuma Az. In Tucson we have those three kinds of K rats. And we have far more rain then yuma. Around here we have mountains. Which are much wetter then Tucson and Tucson is much wetter then Yuma. Well the dang K rats do not live in the mountains. Is it because there is water?????

Now lets put a k rat in captivity. If you do not give it water it dies. WHAT??? Why would you have to give a captive K rat water? They are known to not have to drink in nature. What, you put desert sand in your cage and some creosote plants. So the cage is Yuma. The K rat still dies. Well this confuses rat keepers too. ITs not the k rat has only obtain water from its food. It will drink. But in nature, it must follow behavior that does not allow it to dehydrate. In yuma, there is no water to drink. In that rat cage, it loses too much water and cannot keep up with that loss thru its food. So it now has to drink.

Also, in nature, the K rats would without question live in our wetter habitats. They could, but something else happens, they get outcompeted by other species of rats with slightly different adaptions then the K rats. Oh by the way, K rats can run like the wind and look like the sand. They do so because there is little cover and they must outrun some of their predators or blend in. This is not necessary in a wetter area. Here, the rats use cover to excape so they are built differently and colored differently. So they outcompeted the K rats. Without question, those wetter rats would love to live in the desert, but there, the K rats outcompete them. By using their special adaptions.

In captivity, you keep both K rats and other rats the same. As there are NONE of the pressures that make them different. Of course, you should not dehydrate any rat. You should give them shelter and clean water.

Mike the point is, none of the pressures that make a peachie a peachie or a gouldi a gouldi are IN OUR/YOUR CAGES, there are no extreme weather conditions or predators chasing them around. Our cages are not suppose to CHALLANGE them, they are suppose to support/provide for them. Give them what is good for them and allows them to progress. Yes, a gouldi can SURVIVE much dryer conditions that a peachie. But you as a keeper should not expose a gouldi to conditions that challange its survival. And yes, a peachie can tolerate WET conditions that a gouldi could not tolerate. But again, why would we do that? Both will THRIVE and PROSPER in conditions that are very similar. You know, conditions that do not challange their extreme abilities. You know, the middle ground and that is what both seek in their respective countries.

So yes, Tyler should mist that cage a little more often, and do so for the gouldi and the peachies. And that would have nothing to do with indo or the outback. It only has to do with the monitors in our cages.

I have proved over many many generations(not a clutch of eggs) of many many species. That the conditions thats benefitual to them is very very very similar with all species of varanids.

You see Mike, To talk about indo or the outback is sorta based on the subject of natural history and Man do I love that subject. But here, in all our cages, which is totally away from natural history, we do not include 99% of that natural history. In our cages, we cannot include the natural history that makes them what they are. We never include the predators or the conditions that allow them to escape those predators(which makes them the color they are) Or the conditions, structure of the habitat, that predicts the monitors physical structure. Or the exact prey type and the conditions that prey is in, that predicts prey gathering adaptions(behavioral and physical) Those are the things that Indo or the outback provide. Not a litebulb and coco puff substrate or "burrow a hole sand" by sandbaggers inc. or Plants from your local nursery. These things we can give them, DO NOT MAKE THEM A PEACHIE OR A GOULDI. That was done by millions of years of their natural history. In captivity we only need to give them, day to day support to be able to achieve basic life events. WHICH IS SO RARE and on a personal level, rare for you. All these years Mike, and so few hatchlings, should tell you something.

You do know, I wish you all the luck and success in the world, you deserve it. But its not luck, thats needed. You have to provide what allows them to succeed. And all the debates in the world will not change that. In the end, I either provide it or not, you either provide it or not, Tyler will either provide it or not, ITS NOT ABOUT INDO OR THE OUTBACK. Sorry for the rant, buts its needed, cheers