Posted by:
WW
at Mon Aug 25 09:08:51 2003 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by WW ]
>>"The key here is that we have isolated and characterised the archetypal cobra-style toxins (called 'three-finger toxins' in case you care) from various 'colubrids'. Some of these snakes are pumping out huge amounts of venom, easily into the lethal range. This includes commonly kept species like Telescopus."
>>
>> So What!!??!! This proves nothing at all but their venom may prove harmful to mice not man. If their venom was so lethal there would be a lot people dieing from their pet snakes, at least a lot of sick people. But guess what?, there is none.
Hmmm - we have already discussed the Rhabdophis scenario from the 70s, whent hey were believed to be, and sold as, harmless. Could it happen again? To damned right - see comments about Coluber rhodorachis below.
In other words, it HAS ALREADY HAPPENED, and is likely to happen again.
Why don't more people die? Because rear-fangs don't get much venom in. Most hognose bites are asymptomatic, as are most Hydrodynastes bites, and so on and so forth. I have been bitten by Hydrodynastes, Enhydris, Cerberus, Philodryas olfersii (dangerous by anyone's standards), Boiga dendrophila, Thamnodynastes, Ahaetulla and a whole host of other colubrids without anything other than a burning sensation after the two Thamnodynastes bites. But then, we KNOW that some of these can cause very nasty bites under some circumstances.
Circumstances such as:
Parents buy new pet snake from shop for young teenager - no scientific name, just some English concoction and an assurance that it's harmless (and if you don't believe that could happen, welcome to the real world)
Teenager feeds snake. Snake smells food, feeding bite, chews thoroughly.
Teenager doesn't know what to do, fnds parents. Parents try to pull snake off, but that hurts. And we don't want to hurt its teeth either, do we? Before you know it, the sanke has been chewing for several minutes, plenty of time for even an dentally underendowed colubrid to get some venom in.
What happens next? If it's a hognose, probably something along the lines of http://www.herpnet.net/bite/ - it hurts, everybody gets upset, but everybody is fine a few days later.
But what if it's a Telescopus that, quite exceptionally, gets a good dose in? Or one of the other unknowns?
Teenager starts to show neurotoxic symptoms some hours later - drooping eyelids - slurred speech - breathing gets difficult....
Parents take him/her to hospital. If they are smart, they will make a connection with the snake bite, if they are not, then they may not. If they do, medics ask "What sort of snake"? Parents say "grey-spotted cat snake". Medic says "What's that?" Parents say "errrrmmmm.... uuuhhhhhhhhhh.... purple-spotted zombie snake - that's what the guy in the pet shop says". Medic phones Poison Control: "We have a kid who got bitten by a grey spotted cat snake and is showing neurotoxic symptoms - what do we do?" Poison Control says: "A what snake? What's the scientific name?". Medic says: "errrrmmmm.... uuuhhhhhhhhhh.... purple-spotted zombie snake - apparently that's what the guy in the pet shop who sold it to the kid said"
And so on and so forth - you can see where this is going.
Unlikely? In any one case, for any one individual snake yes. But for large volumes sold without warning to large numbers of general petkeepers? Highly plausible.
And, like I said, it HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.
>>Species like Telescopes are not commonly kept as pets. A commonly kept pet snake would be a corn snake, ball python and kingsnake, NOT Telescopes. The very few that are sold are sold under rear-fang-ed snakes snakes by dealers only to adults. If you don't believe me go look at the kingsnake.com classifieds,now look at the colubrid section and you will see there is no Telescopes or Psammophis for sale, mater of fact I have never seen these snakes for sale on the colubrid section.I hate to say this but I'am starting to believe Ray and so are a lot of other people.
>>
Psammophis and Telescopus do get kept in various countries at times, certainly in Europe (there are other countries in the world than that covered by kingsnake.com's classifieds section). The scale of it is certainly vastly less than any of the common milk, corn, rat or garter snakes, but nevertheless, they are sometimes kept.
Why else would two US petshop employees have suffered severe neurotoxic symptoms from colubrid snakes in the last year alone?
Now let's get back to a few basic facts here:
(i) some of the most commonly kept pet snakes are in fact non-venomous, including all boas and pythons, and also, among the colubrids, the N. American (as opposed to Asian) rat snakes, king snakes, milk snakes and bull snakes, who have become specialised constrictors and abandoned venom in the process.
(ii) some of the other most commonly kept pet snakes are technically venomous, whether you like it or not. Happily, they are also almost totally harmless. That would include garter snakes, water snakes and various other colubrids, including the Asian rat snakes such as Coelognathus radiatus (ex-Elaphe radiata). (but even then, garters are certainly capable of producing local symptoms...)
(iii) There is a huge variety of colubrid snakes out there. Some are already on the suspect list, but some are not, and may cause some nasty surprises. Less than a year ago, a US pet shop employee suffered substantial neurotoxic envenoming from a bite by Coluber rhodorachis. Please show me the reference that says that C. rhodorachis is seriously venomous and can cause neurotoxicity.
(iv) As new countries open up to exporters, and as new habitats are encroached on and new species exported, some of these poorly known species may suddenly become common and cheap in the trade - lots of people, not just rear-fang specialists, will have the opportunity to buy them. The reliability of petshops in providing good advice is not above criticsism, to put it very mildly indeed.
(v) How dangerous is dangerous? What is an acceptable risk? Check out this URL on a hognose bite (link below):
http://www.herpnet.net/bite/
Is that an acceptable risk?
To a venomous herper, having a sore arm for a few days is probably not such a big deal. Objectively, the damage done is considerably less than could be done by a medium-sized dog. I would not stop me keeping or freehandling hoggies (but I would use forceps for feeding, and not stick my hands in its way after hadnling mice).
However, how will it go down with a family that bought a hoggie for a teenage offspring on the understanding that it is totaly harmless?
Now OK, we know hoggies can do that and hopefully, buyers are told about the possibility, but what about some of these new imports?
The point of it all is not that al colubrids should be regulated, the point is that people who deal with them should be careful. Don't be the first to find out that a species previously believed to be harmless is in fact dangerous.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Hoggie bite
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WW
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RE: True colours - BGF's own words - WW, Mon Aug 25 09:08:51 2003
