return to main index

  market - home
follow us on facebook follow us on twitter link to us on LinkedIn
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research  
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Locate a business by name: click to list your business
search the classifieds. buy an account
events by zip code list an event
Search the forums             Search in:
News & Events: Kingsnake battles a Rattlesnake . . . . . . . . . .  The battle for survival for the Ibiza wall lizards . . . . . . . . . .  Bringing back the Horned Lizard . . . . . . . . . .  UGA Study shows pathogens threaten snakes survival in Southern US . . . . . . . . . .  First time Sea Turtle nesting in Florida . . . . . . . . . .  New regulations on Native Species for Wisconsin Keepers . . . . . . . . . .  Heavy Metal Scorpion . . . . . . . . . .  How a python change the course of Attenbourgh's life . . . . . . . . . .  Make good choices . . . . . . . . . .  Burmese found on roadside in Wisconsin raises issues . . . . . . . . . .  Happy Earth Day . . . . . . . . . .  Kingsnake Merch Store . . . . . . . . . .  Kingsnake returns to Tinley . . . . . . . . . .  kingsnake.com joins Monitor Brains! . . . . . . . . . .  Sneak Peek . . . . . . . . . .  Amphibian gut bacteria showing promise in cancer research . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Meet The Baroness - The world's longest snake . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Updates? . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  The mechanics behind the viper strike . . . . . . . . . .  Snakes on a Train? . . . . . . . . . .  Tracking the animals in the Florida Everglades - Meet the Croc Docs . . . . . . . . . .  Reintroduction attempts give San Francisco Garter a second chance . . . . . . . . . .  Promoting Reptiles is Our Jam Man . . . . . . . . . .  Origins of Chytrid discovered . . . . . . . . . .  Wisdom Wednesday - The Forums - The water is warm... Come on in! . . . . . . . . . .  Kingsnake.com Past, Present and Future . . . . . . . . . .  Bay Area Herpetological Society Meeting - June 26, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Tinley NARBC June - Jun 27-28 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - June 27, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Greater Cincinnati Herp Society Meeting - July 01, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Reptile Super Show & LA Pet Fair - July 11-12 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  PACNWRS - Jul. 11-12, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - July 18, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - July 19, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Bay Area Herpetological Society Meeting - July 24, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - July 25, 2026 . . . . . . . . . . 

RE: LOL!

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Taxonomy Discussion ]

Posted by: RichardFHoyer at Wed Sep 3 23:16:34 2003   [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by RichardFHoyer ]  
   

Richard:

Read your post to Patrick and can see some parallels that exist in the U.S. Of course, I do not know the other side of the 'story' you relate but nevertheless, it brings to mind a couple of situations.



I am a amateur but like yourself, just love science and the discovery process. In 1997, I became aware that my state's wildlife agency was listing non-game species in various categories of concern with little or no hard evidence. One of those species listed in both the 'sensitive' and 'protected' categories was the Sharp-tailed Snake (Contia tenuis). Since there never had been a study of the species in Oregon, I knew that such listings were not science-based. When I read Oregon Dept. of Fish and Wildlife's official status account of the species in which they claimed it was "rare" and "declining" in part of its distribution, may no longer be found in counties in which it had been documented and similar falsified information, I was so mad that I decided to initiate a study of the species.



As I have dug into this issue, it is now clear that not only the Oregon Dept. of F & W but many, if not the majority of state wildlife agencies are doing the same thing, listing non-game species in various categories of concern via junk science, that is, the use of anecdotal information and processes. As a graduate in Wildlife Science (Ore. St. U., 1955) I know that this

behavior is not only unprofessional and unethical but dishonest as well. But because of the culture in wildlife agencies with some support from certain members of the academic community, no one dares rock the boat. To do so would amount to career suicide. I am retired so can speak up. I am trying to do something about this situation in Oregon but have gotten virtually no where so far after almost a year and a half trying to work with my state's wildlife agency to change the situation.



Earlier this year, I conferred with two well respected scientist at OSU, one in Zoology and one in Fisheries and Wildlife. They both confirmed that it is still unacceptable to use anecdotal information as if such were fact in scientific endeavors.



The second episode revolved around my Contia study the field portion beginning with my first capture on March 6, 1998. By chance, in July 1998 I found a different looking Sharp-tailed Snake. After a year of gathering information, it was clear that this specimen and other like her represented a heretofore overlooked species in the genus Contia. I then set about writing a manuscript describing the discovery along with supporting data. If there ever was a slam dunk case in taxonomy in which a new species existed, this was such a case. If one knows what to look for, you can identify adults of the two species of Contia by visual means without even taking measurements.



As mentioned, it took me exactly one year to gather the information that overwhelmingly supported the separate species hypothesis. It then took me over two years and two review processes to have two versions of the paper reviewed by seven provessionals. To his credit, the editor (not a herpetologist) though skeptical, reserved his comments to questions and editorial suggestions. But two associate editors, both herpetologists, rejected the new species scenario outright with one of them being downright nasty with his comments. Three additional professionals essentially rejected the new species thesis. But with luck, there was one reasoned voice during the second peer review process. That individual made commments and suggestions that were virtually counter to all others. On that basis along with my letters providing added insight, the editor ,with a few minor revisions, eventually accepted the paper.



From this experience, I have taken away a number of

'messages'. Snobery has no bounds. Secondly, instead of assisting and fostering publication of original research, the process does just the opposite. And third and most clear to me, there is gross incompetenence amongst the professional ranks. The same data that all but one of the peer reviewers (all professional herpetologists) rejected were abundantly clear to herpetologists here at OSU that help me with the statistical treatment of the data, etc. and to the one reviewer.



So in the U.S., you have a little bit of company but certainly not to the severe degree you have described.



Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)


   

[ Show Entire Thread ]


>> Next Message:  RE: LOL! - paalexan, Thu Sep 4 18:36:35 2003
>> Next Message:  RE: LOL! - RSNewton, Fri Sep 26 11:50:35 2003

<< Previous Message:  RE: LOL! - richardwells, Wed Sep 3 08:20:27 2003

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You Click here to visit Classifieds Click here to visit Classifieds
KINGSNAKE.COM

Enjoy all our content free of charge with a user account that gives you full access to every feature. For added visibility, paid options are available - post in our Classifieds, showcase your business with Banner Ads or a Directory listing, promote reptile events, and more.

Quick Links
Community
Legal & Safety
Support

Register for free ✓ Sign up!

Kingsnake.com ® is a registered trademark © 1997-