Actually having a bunch of splinter groups with slightly differing agendas is by far more counterproductive. What it will take to fight for the rights of private herpers is a very large all inclusive group. The main reason for this is that it will take a lot of money to get the job done. Since most herpers aren’t wealthy it will take everyone contributing what they can afford, which in most cases is a small amount. Further, an all inclusive group would allow all the commercial interests to donate substantial amounts of money. Since they make the most money they can contribute more.



Mike, we've been over this with you until we're blue in the face. Your arguments held NO water here in Texas and I doubt they will in the nation at large. Commercialization of wild caught animals is just something academic herpers and government regulators have BIG problems with. The money argument is actually counterproductive to your case-for example, here in Texas only a tiny handful of people eke out a meager living collecting wild caught animals. If HCU attempted to encompass them, we would lose academics, government folks, and the large number of our private members who ALSO have problems with commercial collecting! You will see the SAME problem with your national "commercial collecting" group.



The problem is that many recreational folks either don’t acknowledge their commercial aspects or they are ignorant as to how they were able to get captive born animals in the first place. Almost every single founder exotic herp in the US was brought in by commercial folks.



This is not even remotely true, but it doesn't matter. These are different times we live in, Mike. There is actually no longer a need to bring in most popular herps out of the wild. We have self-sustaining captive populations now.



The recreational folks in Texas have argued in the past that they are not commercial folks. They say, “we only recreationally collect” and then they take the animals home, breed them and produce captive born off spring and then sell them.



Denying the economic realities of the herp industry is definitely where recreational groups go a stray. Everything costs money. Collectors spend a large amount of money to collect herps. Breeders spend a large amount of money to keep and breed herps. Pet stores have high overhead. Dealers have many expenses in their business. To say that money is everywhere in the herp industry and then to say BUT when it comes to wild caught is naive at best. You can’t deny economic reality.



Not denying reality at all-you are the one being naive for denying the profound difference between commercialization of wild caught and captive born herps. HCU and other groups fight strongly for the right to breed and sell captive born herps-that is why many commercial breeders are members-and most regulators don't have problems with cb animals or their sale. That is the common ground where our hobby can eke out a future!



If recreational folks are not into herps for the money then why don’t they give their offspring away? Good question, huh. That is because they have to try and recover some of their investment. So do the rest of the folks involved in the herp industry.



Never said recreational herpers don't have money as one motivating factor. what's your point? Nobody here is arguing that people should not make money!



The fisheries example works good for herps. Remember, a fishery is used mainly for feeding folks. Herps are not (except in the case of the Asian market). The commercial fish industry sells fish. Most recreational fisherman do not. You have some folks who sell herps and you have some folks who just keep “pets.”



Well I don't really have a clue what you're getting at here-my point below stands, when you point to fishing you're actually supporting our points.



Just because some states do something doesn’t mean it is the correct or fair thing to do. Let’s look at Tennessee and Georgia: you can’t collect, possess, breed or sell native non-venomous snakes. Tennessee and Georgia passed these laws. They have to be good, right? You want that same law here in Texas don’t you folks? Why do recreational folks feel the need to pander to decision-makers? A little brown nosing? As long as that decision-maker doesn’t take away something you like to do then you will support what ever they say? Since you personally don’t want to sell wild-caught erps you are willing to give that right away to keep recreational (wink, wink) collecting? C’mon folks. Live in the real world.



This is the art of the possible, Mike. We've already had this argument in Texas, and here's a clue for you-you lost! In fact, just about the only support for your views was-YOU. It's been over a decade since the Aviculturists lost the "right" to take birds from the wild. Guess what, the Aviculturists are THRIVING-yes, even those who formerly dealt in wild caught birds! If herpers act now, we have a chance of preserving recreational herping-but the days of collecting mass quantities of wild aqnimals and selling them for a profit are fast disappearing. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to you-but it IS happening. That, my friend, is REALITY.



Mike, you are a commercial collector. I understand that. But there aren't many of you around any more. If I were you I'd settle down and set up breeding colonies of all the species my customers were demanding-in El Paso that should be simple.



Best regards
-----
Brad Chambers

WWW.HCU-TX.ORG



The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

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