Finally, someone who wants to discuss the issues at hand, and sounds like he is interested



>>But I've heard too many from HCU that belittle commercial >>collection, and that is not a way to treat those that should be >>allies.



I think it is important that not all commercial collectors be lumped together with the commercial entity who posts on this forum. I'm sure that just like in life, there are all sorts of folks who collect commercially. Some are responsible and law abiding, and some are not. We do NOT wish to put a stop to commercial collecting. Mike only wishes to derail our efforts because we do not support him, but he has nothing to fear that even remotely resembles "giving away rights", not even for commercial collectors. Firstly, even IF we wanted to bargain away those rights which we DON'T, I don't think we have that kind of power yet. Your next thought carries in with mine, read on...



>>I don't think commercial collection should go unregulated >>(there should be limits placed on collection and that number >>should be reevaluated every year or so and changed based upon >>collection impacts on populations) but it is very important to >>the pet trade and the continuation of endangered herps all over >>the planet.



Absolutely, which is why we agree with the premise of the TP&W Black and White List. Let me say straight off that the application of species and numbers IMO needs work. It's far from perfect IMO. But it's a start and it's a great compromise. It's allows for commercialization, and we support it.





>>Many of our "non native" snakes that we keep were brought into >>this country by commercial collection. And commercial >>collection and sale can provide new "fresh" genetics to >>breeders who don't have access to the natural home range of the >>snakes that they breed. I live in Virginia, and it would be >>hard for me to make it to Texas to collect my own wild >>specimens of, say, gray-banded kingsnakes. Much less a breeder >>overseas. Should they not have access to obtaining these >>animals? Do you believe that only people in and around Texas >>should be working with these animals?



Yes, everything has to be collected from the wild first and foremost. In a nutshell, we want protection for species that need protection, and reasonable and SUSTAINABLE take on those species that can withstand it. Now to your specific questions regarding Gray-bands. Firstly it is my opinion that Gray-bands will be here living in this world when humans are extinct by virtue of their habits and habitat. IMO Gray-bands should be white listed and allowed for commercial take. But maybe Box Turtles would have been a better example to address your questions?



Box Turtles are rapidly disappearing from much of Texas and in dire need of protection. While populations are very strong in parts of Texas, these pops would be considered the last stronghold in Texas. In this scenario it makes sense to protect that population from commercialization. They are easy targets for unscrupulous commercial collectors, an easy $50 or $100. This guy is on record saying all other threats to these species should be evaluated before limiting collection. That is a perfect example of the ME ME ME attitude of certain commercial collectors. What about the animals? It does not make sense that because they face other threats, one more threat won't hurt! That's why I continually bring up the box turtles, because it effectively illustrates the difference in philosophy.



Not only that, if you truly have a population that is in trouble, it's not the commercial collectors you want to send in there to gather stock for captive propagation efforts. This will have to be done by Zoos and Institutions, and accredited private facilities, not just anyone.



For the vast majority of species already established in captivity, it should be on a case by case basis. If a harvest is sustainable in reasonable numbers it should always be allowed IMO.



Captive propagation is key, but it can't take place without collection from the wild, but nowhere does it say that you can't have a particular species if it wasn't commercially collected. In your Gray-band example there are hundreds of Gray-band breeders. What is wrong with captive bred specimens if you can't get here to catch your own? And what about Mexican species that we can't import? If we hadn't reproduced those species in captivity from the few legally imported animals then I wouldn't have this cute little baby thayeri today.



>>By excluding commercial >>collection you have inadvertently (or >>maybe advertently) >>limited your support size to only local >>individuals plus a select few nationwide friends.



Our group is not for everyone but I don't view that as unfortunate. We are very focused on what we are doing, and we believe that we are very effective. We provide a valuable service for anyone that wishes to legally herp in Texas and doesn't own their own land. While we don't support collecting for the purpose of sale, we certainly aren't giving away any of those rights.
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