There are holes in most of the scientific papers on box turtles.

Most of the papers make statments and conclusions that way overstretch the data in them.



The McKeever Center papers for instance were done using donated pet box turtles and rehab box turtles so those studies are scewed and yet they are being used to run laws through in other States on other species and subspecies of box turtles.

It takes a few years before most relocated box turtles even start to act normal. So the findings there are not justified in being used as a guide on making laws and consevation rules.

We don't even know for sure if all of those turtles were full blooded Eastern box turtles or if they could have been hybrids from other areas.

The papers from there say that the males have trouble finding the females if there is not a real high population density, but the eggs layed that he took inside and incubated had a good hatch rate. So I think the males found the female just find.

Also even though he said the females retain sperm they loose fertility over time, this is true but a male only has to breed them once every few years anyway. The males also smell the ground and find the nesting spots and hang out there to breed the females. Most of the information is made out to work against reptile keepers, so it is always going to get interpreted in there favor and against the reptile keepers.



As for the Iroquois paper or papers, it said that the Iroquois are responsable for the extirpation of the box turtles in the Western area near New York. But, the Iroquois lived over a larger area all the way west to the Great Lakes and the box turtles did not go extinct over most of the range were the Iroquois lived. They could have got those shells by trade too. But this little area West of New York still has no box turtles more than 200 years after the Iroquois have gone from there.

This makes me wonder if there could be another reason for them not being there? We ned to be careful we don't miss the real reason just to hurt herpers. Plus Native Americans collected box turtles over all of the box turtle range according to fossil records.

This little area West of New York is less than 1% of the box turtles historic range so why didn't they go extinct over the other 99% of the range they were being collected in?

To me the over all bigger fossil record picture shows collection is sustainable.

Even on the Barrier Islands of Florida were Native Americans lived and used box turtles, they did not go extinct. There would be low to no recruitment of emigrants from the main land so again the fossil record here shows collection is sustainable.



As for the fragmented habitat and road kills ( I would add fire ants and other things too) being a stress factor on populations. This is no reason to stop collection for captive breeding purposes. It is if anything a reason to get some of these population into breeding projects.

Making hands off laws never in itself saves the species as some gene pools have gone extinct while under protection.

Genetic diversity not only on a species level but even in one gene pool is important. Captive propogation can be a safty net against loosing genes. This is something the people that grow plants know and practice.



Captive propogation never caused an extinction as making more animals of any species is not decline and is conservation. Shutting down breeders is not a good conservasion plan.

Academics needs to work more with herpers and not always against them just for the sake that they are reptile keepers.



I am not for mass collection and think bag limits and other regs are a good thing so long as they are well thought out and written. But, since Biologist are not going to be able to save all of the gene pools before they go extince due to development and fire ants and so on, stopping captive breeding and not allowing people to collect at least a few animals from other populations for breeding purposes is a bad thing.



Also not to say BTPT is all bad but yes you guys did use the Asian food market scare to hype people up to get them to sign a petition to get the box turtles in Texas put on the black list. At first TP&W was going to make us get rid of all except six turtles and not be able to breed the ones we had left!!!!!

You guys nearly waisted 30 years of my work and destroyed a very old collection with a lot of captive born and raised adults in it. Eric

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