Brad,



You are wrong about many things in your post. The fact that many HCUers are hunters and fisherman is why they should NOT be in charge of a group that represents any part of the herp industry. You look at the “rules” through the eyes of game management. Herps and the herp industry are not like game animals in many ways. In the herp industry, animals are captured alive, possessed, bred and sold (across local, state and federal lines). Game animals are not. They are killed and either mounted or eaten. This is why you don’t get it. Further, your “game management” thinking falls right in line with TPWD thinking which is the WRONG way to think about herps. Now, the management of herps should use wildlife management tools to ensure against over-collection but you have to start by recognizing what the herp industry is and how it functions and it isn’t the same as game management.



All herps have a surplus that can be harvested. For the millionth time, it does not matter what you do with these animals once they are harvested. You can kill them, sell them, eat them or keep them as captives. Just because many in academia and at TPWD don’t get this doesn’t mean you cave in and agree with whatever they say. Just because HCUers want to be “fished in” doesn’t mean the herp industry does. We are talking about a slippery slope. Don’t you understand that? You guys are so naive. There is a difference between refusing to negotiate and standing up for what is right. I will bet any amount of money that if graybands had been listed on the Black List you would be singing a different tune. And you know why they weren’t? Because TPWD knows they would need a ton of data to back it up and they don’t have it. You know why box turtles are? Because box turtle preservation groups have pushed an agenda based on skewed and opinionated papers that stretch the truth.



It is recreational groups like HCU that are causing a divide in the herp industry. Before 2007 the herp industry was a group of people and businesses that included both commercial and recreational folks. Many people crossed the lines of both commercial and recreation. In 2008, we have a splinter group of recreationalists who surrendered to TPWD and do not support commercial folks. You guys are causing the divide but you do not accept that nor do you care. You continue to argue your positions, kissing up to TPWD and pushing the divide and conquer agenda. Thanks! Thanks a lot. People who believe in the right to sell wild caught, the dealers, the importers and the folks who know how bad your agenda is appreciate it. Thanks for being there for the industry and dividing us.



Now, I know you have been “fished in” because of your positions regarding box turtles. You quote the same data skewed, opinion laced papers that were used to outlaw commercial harvest in the first place. Lets look at some quotes from your propaganda:



“This simply means that each individual lives a very long time, produces relatively few offspring per year, and few of these survive to adulthood to replace the parents.”



Box turtles lay between 3 to 7 eggs per clutch and they can have up to three clutches per year. That is a better reproductive rate then graybands and about as much as more fecund snakes. Just because neonate and juvenile box turtles are hard to find does not mean that “few of these survive to adulthood to replace parents.” They are just hard to find because they stay buried much of the time. Researchers have not found a reliable way to discover neonates and juveniles that is all. I have been hunting graybands for nearly 20 years and I have never seen a hatchling in the wild. So should graybands be Black Listed?

“With many species, removal of even a relatively few adults (especially females) can actually drive a population to extinction.”



This is a false statement. If a population is this low then it is doomed. Box turtles are eaten by many animals and killed on roads. If they were this sensitive they would have been extinct long ago. So this is obviously not true. If this were true, box turtles would have been extinct long ago because native Americans have been harvesting them for hundreds of years.





If box turtles are in such bad shape then why are they not listed as Endangered or Threatened? Because they are not in that bad a shape. You see, to place species on protected lists you need data. And the data isn’t there.



By accepting, without question, the box turtle agenda from academics and TPWD you are selling out the hobby. So lets review. HCU and those that support HCU are with academics and TPWD on turtles and the selling of wild caught. You are dividing the hobby and you are giving credence to this agenda by supporting it and selling out your brothers. Why are you doing this? Simple, you guys are selfish and it doesn’t affect you--------yet!



Have a good evening,



Mike Welker

El Paso, TX

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