Posted by:
Debb_luvs_uros
at Sun Jun 29 13:03:09 2008 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Debb_luvs_uros ]
”Oh please, I don't think not wanting to crap in your home is anthropomorphic.”
Not for those that practice anthropomorphism it isn’t.
I think the key word here is wanting. I think things like activity, stress, sunlight, and conditioning are more likely than desire. If this were desire, I think we would see a larger number of these animals demonstrating this desire. Maybe your specific animal has a desire that most others do not- experience and logic just leads me to believe that most uromastyx do not have this desire. Not only do I not see a pattern with uromastyx holding defecation to keep their enclosure tidy, I do not even see a consistent pattern of uromastyx defecating in one particular area of an enclosure. Unless of course you take into consideration the basking spot but considering the animal often lays in this area, this certainly seems more heat related than tidy related. Maybe you could take a poll as to how many owners have uromastyx that refuse to defecate within the enclosure or have uromastyx that only defecate in one specific spot in the enclosure vs those that randomly defecate where ever the need arises? Put me down for currently having 52 uromastyx (ten species at present) that randomly defecate throughout the enclosure with some demonstrating an inconsitent preference at times for the higher temperature of the basking spot.
”Our warmblooded pets learn quickly to go outdoors.”
Yes, my warm blooded dog quickly learned this as well however, I was referring to a uromastyx making a conscious decision to be tidy. I also believe my dog urinating and defecating outdoors had more to do with training than a simple desire on his part. This is where my previous statement that repetition/condition may play a role in some uromastyx only defecating when taken out of the enclosure or bathed. I do not place a dog and uromastyx on the same level when it comes to behavior, learning, communication, or desire just as I do not place a dog and human on the same level.
”But all animals are different.”
Agreed, and I do not directly apply patterns demonstrated by iguanas, leopard geckos, or other reptiles onto uromastyx. When you have worked with eleven species of a given genus, own several dozen, and have closely tracked behavior for years, you get a feel for the ‘typical’ patterns and behavior of that animal and this is the reason that I suggest people be open-minded enough to consider other possibilities for the behaviors they are witnessing. You yourself have stated that this is the only reptile you own that does this. Maybe it would be wise to at least consider the possibility that this might be occurring for a reason other than a desire to be tidy. I think to simply dismiss other possibilities would be somewhat irresponsible. What is the worse that could happen- you could improve the diet or enclosure? That you might have to clean up more fecal matter from the enclosure? That the animal may defecate every day even when you are traveling for work?
”I might lean toward you more scientific people if this Mali didn't hold it for days, especially when I have to travel for work.
And from this you determined that the uromastyx was making a conscious effort to keep his enclosure tidy rather than repeated conditioning or increased activity stimulating defecation?
I discovered a long time ago that when a suggestion is made such as the possibility of inadequate temperatures, the person insisting on a tame trained uromastyx always claims perfect temperatures and enclosures so I refuse to even go there in asking the question about temperatures anymore. Instead, I will simply throw out the suggestion to use a reliable instrument and take various temperature reading throughout the enclosure during various time of the day and year.
I tweak my enclosures based on the behavior of the animal(s) within the enclosure and on average most of my enclosures run 93-97, cool end 80-85, and basking spot 120-140. If I drop these parameters, some of my uromastyx tend to become ‘tamer’ and lower basking spots result in more ‘cuddling’ on basking spots. Using only larger enclosures (24-36" width- 4-6' length), proper temperatures and a healthy fresh varied herbivore diet, I have virtually no ‘glass dancing’ in 30 plus enclosures.
You have posted about your mixed species enclosure and type about the animals really getting along as they are stacking on top one another on the same basking spot. If this were my enclosure, I would not be thinking about how much my reptiles like each other; I would be checking the temperature of my other basking spots and/or adding additional basking spots and possibly increasing temperatures.
I would also highly recommend that you take a look at the amount of fiber in the diet as too high or too low will have a very direct impact on defecation. If temperatures and/or diet (fiber) are inadequate, I can certainly see where an animal would go days or even weeks without defecating and an increase in activity/stress outside the enclosure might get things moving along. Just a suggestion so please do not come back informing me of how perfect your enclosure is. If you feel your enclosure and diet is perfect, just ignore the suggestions.
” To come home and he goes straight to his door and once opened, makes very determined bee line for his spot.”
Most of my uromastyx also come running to the door when I approach the enclosure. I am pretty certain that it is not out of love or a desire to go potty outside but more likely an association of my presence with food. Now, if I started taking my animals outside and they had not recently defecated, I am fairly certain that a fair number might defecate due to the increased stress/activity/sunlight. If I did this daily, I could probably eventually establish a pattern with some. However, I don’t think I would chalk it up to my uromastyx asking me to go out to go potty to keep the enclosure tidy.
”I might lean toward you more scientific people if he would just relieve himself 'anywhere' but he doesn't. He goes to the same area and maintains a midden.”
I mentioned repetition and conditioning in my first post. You indicated that the mali established the pattern of looking for predators and running to the same secure location under a chair. It does not surprise me that with an increase in activity, stress, and sunlight and the animal running to the same secure spot - it happens to defecate in that one spot. Like I stated earlier, I have worked with people that insisted that their animal would only go when let out or bathed. One specific animal demonstrated this for quite a few months and would go a week or two (yes 2) without defecating. Fecals all came back clear and the person was insisting that the animal would hold waste until it died if not soaked. When some of the changes I mentioned in my last post were made, the animal started a regular pattern of defecation.
If you travel and the animal is not defecating for several days or a week, I would certainly think that you would want to think outside the box and attempt some changes to remedy the situation as you are not around all the time for potty breaks. If repetition/conditioning does play a role, you can use the same principle to remedy the situation.
”I might lean towards you more scientific people if he also didn't ask to go outside or back inside on his own accord.”
Yes, I have seen some of your posts with statements that your uromastyx ‘asks’ to come out to relieve himself and ‘asks’ to play. Maybe he is asking for a larger enclosure, to increase his temps, and your help in finding his roommates an enclosure of their own but you are not listening carefully enough?
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”I might lean toward you more scientific people if he didn't spend time actively excersizing inside his habitat. He's plenty active enough in there.”
You stated in past posts that this is the only reptile that ‘asks’ to come out to go potty and others defecate in the enclosure. You also state that you only keep tame uromastyx and got rid of others that were not as tame. You suggest that the animal we are discussing is ‘fat’ was not in good condition when you acquired it, eats things that you have no clue whether or not are good or bad (aloe, jade), is fed things like insects, breakfast sausage, and pork. Have you thought perhaps the condition of the animal has something to do with its unusual behavior in laying around on your deck or pattern of defecating? Rather than think you have a dog tame uromastyx, maybe some blood work and radiographs to validate the health of the animal might be in order? I acquired an overweight male ornate that was fed insects, had gout, and was kept for years in substandard (low) temperatures. The ornate ate well and had a normal routine of entering and exiting its hide. The owner suggested that the animal was dog tame and in all appearance- it was. This animal could be set down outside on a large rock and it would just sit and bask. Most would probably described the behavior as laid-back and tame. The animal did not do much other than lay around and occasionally walk around the enclosure. Eighteen months after being placed in a properly heated and lighted 6’ enclosure, a proper diet, and some much needed shed weight, the animal is active, alert, and would bolt if placed outdoors on that same rock. I am much happier with the behavior I am seeing now than what I saw 18 months ago. I could certainly have done nothing and sat around posting about my tame uromastyx but I feel pretty good that I looked at everything, made the changes that I did, and am seeing the behavior that I am seeing. The term ‘dog tame’ raises red flags for me when referring to most species of uromastyx. Granted, some species (maliensis, ornate, aegyptia) appear to tolerate human interaction more than other species so this will differ somewhat between individual animals as well as species. This is why terms such as ‘most, majority, some, possibility…' are used. I am sure that there are some healthy well cared for uromastyx that have been conditioned to tolerate handling and interaction with people so I am NOT saying that there are not some healthy well-cared for uromastyx that people might refer to as tame. However, I think that this is definitely an exception rather than the norm and most people posting about super tame uromastyx would benefit from taking a look at my suggestions for possible modification to enclosure and diet.
My 22 year old Sudan knows when there are 'new' people around and he hides from them. He clearly knows the difference between me and those familiar to those he does not know.
Yes, I have reptiles that react to different sounds and visuals as well. I stated that repetition and conditioning occur and have not suggested that reptiles have no intelligence or cannot recognize new sights or sounds.
”I think anthropomorphing these guys might be more if I said he could count and knew how to perform Algebraic equasions and could tap out the answer with his right front foot.”
I guess the term is somewhat subjective as I think the statement that your mali is asking you to play is fairly anthropomorphic. Opinions will vary.
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RE: Fastidious Taz - Debb_luvs_uros, Sun Jun 29 13:03:09 2008
