Posted by:
Jonathan_Brady
at Tue Dec 16 21:01:34 2008 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Jonathan_Brady ]
And by "a few" I mean I'll probably ramble endlessly like every other post I write. Sorry in advance 
Hey Joel, I'm comfortable putting this out there. I care what people think, but those that get upset by this will probably never impact me positively or negatively anyway! lol
I've had this conversation MANY times with MANY people and I share Ernie's sentiment. I also share much of Eric's sentiment as well.
I believe that the topography of Suriname and Guyana prohibit the back and forth transportation of boas. I think the only way something like this would happen would be if one country was closed, and the other had been hunted to such a large degree that animals weren't readily available. Or, like Ernie said, if something of great value was at stake.
From what I hear (second hand knowledge here guys), the trappers are paid VERY minimally (like, a couple of dollars, if that) per animal. So someone PLEASE explain to me why it's a worthwhile venture to travel a couple of hundred miles from one country to another with a HUGE bag of boas (and it would have to be HUGE to justify the trip) along with whoever will come with you to help carry supplies, and a friggin canoe, up and down mountains and hills, across rivers and valleys, through jungles and who knows what else, for $50?? Yeah, $50 is ok money for someone in those countries, but it's all you'd get because of the split with the other guys. So why do it, especially when they can travel somewhere locally and make the same money! Not worth it!
I'd like everyone to take a look at these two maps (sorry they're a little big): From west to east...
Guyana (Suriname border on the right)
Suriname (Guyana border on the left)
You see those little blue squiggly lines that are almost ENTIRELY vertically oriented? Those are rivers! What's the primary mode of transportation in S. America? Boat! Wouldn't the absence of a river running East to West be a MAJOR barrier to moving animals from one country to another?
Also, you see those places that look like the paper got scrunched up and then photocopied? Those are mountains or at least VERY large hills. Ever carried a canoe and a ton of boas up a mountain, in the jungle while watching over your shoulder for wild animals and under your feet and beside you on branches for venemous snakes? Probably not the most fun.
Having said all of that, I'm SURE animals can be taken from one country to another and it may or may not be as difficult as I've made it out to be in my rather sarcastic way (it's just my way of having fun and illustrating a point - not directed at ANYONE in particular, I promise). And it's probably happened. But given that the quotas for both countries are only around 1000 each, why make the trip? It probably doesn't happen anymore.
So, the reason I went through that is to say, if your WC animal comes in on a shipment from a certain country, it's more than likely from that country and all of the second guessing in the world isn't going to change that, unless YOU collected it yourself or have EXTREMELY reliable information stating otherwise.
Now onto something that REALLY chaps my behind. Why is everything a Suri? Animals that are brought in from Guyana get called Suris! Animals from French Guiana are Suris! Animals from N. Brazil are grouped in with Suris in some cases! Animals posted on THIS and MANY other forums with a headline that says "look at my Guyana", the responses often include "Hey, nice Suri!". Just once, I'd LOVE to see someone buy a well known Suri and post the crap out of it on the forums and label it a Guyana, or French Guiana, or North Brazilian! People would LOSE THEIR MINDS! It'd be great! lol
There are SEVERAL very well known individual animals in the boa trade that have come in as Guyanans, changed hands to someone new (sold as a Guyana) and then posted on a forum as a Suri?? Why? If you want SO desperately for your animals to be a Suri, buy one! If you want SO desperately for your animal to be bred to your prized Suri but you don't want to catch any flack about the label, label the babies GUYANA SHIELD (notice it's not SURINAME SHIELD - hehe). It's an ACCURATE, TRUTHFUL, label. I think it loses the "locality" tag at that point, but it's still a LABEL. Don't lie about the origin by changing the label, that's just deplorable. In this business, all you have is your reputation, and a bad decision can follow you for YEARS. We've seen it happen.
For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding a Suriname to a Guyana - I even believe they're the same animal on a scientific level. Although I do believe that they have their own visually identifiable characteristics that a few people are able to pick out, but not most.
But if you're going to do that breeding, disclose it by calling them Guyana Shield or Northern Shield BCC. Most people don't care anyway! Most of them will probably call them Suris anyway, lol. If they did care, they wouldn't be buying MANY of the established lines of Surinames in the US. By the way, I won't be doing this, just personal preference.
FOR THE MOST PART, with regards to Guyana Shield BCC, country of origin is about as specific as it gets - and that's about it. Occasionally you'll get something like Gus' Pokigron Suriname animals, or that female that Ernie captured in Apetina that dropped PHENOMENAL babies (if I remember that story right). And also some of the Guyana stuff from Wakenaam island, etc..
I think locality boas with regards to these animals is less about keeping bloodlines apart and more about having a reliable way to trace back a particular animal to it's country of origin. I'm from the south, so this next analogy is just based PURELY on a hunch, but I have a feeling if you met a guy from the Bronx and asked him if he was from New Jersey, he'd get ticked! We're people, origin is important to us for whatever reason. It's harder to fight it than it is to accept it.
Another point that was brought up is the marketing of offspring and WC animals. I do look for WC animals occasionally and if I find an animal I like, but do not trust the source, I bail out of the deal. I do this because I WANT to know the country of origin of the animal I'm buying because I ONLY have Guyana BCC in my collection. And it's a small collection - no room for another locality - hence, no Surinames.
Also, Eric made the point that many CBB animals look NOTHING like their wild counterparts. I agree wholeheartedly!! This is one reason I'm striving to obtain WC animals that have a look that will be reproduceable in the F1 offspring. I feel like I did a VERY good job with my latest breeding of producing babies that looked like their WC parents. Things that turn me off in CBB animals is the dorsal-lateral dashes running too far into the tail and the saddles not being a solid or semi-solid color. Save for the aberrant animals. I don't WANT to produce animals with those characteristics. I want an animal with approximately 21 total saddles, 6-9 red "tail" saddles. Relatively even spacing between the saddles (unless aberrant). Speckling to a greater or lesser degree. And some decent color. Bold contrast is a plus as is a well marked head and face. That's what my WC animals look like!
By the way, Eric. I would buy from you in a heart beat. I would have already bought that 8' Guyana female from you if I had a place to quarantine her big @$$!!! My quarantine area consists of blanket boxes, and that just won't work for her! lol
Having said all of that, I can appreciate a CBB animal for the enhancements that selective breeding can make. But, I buy for my tastes. I also like to know that if and when I do produce litters, that I can have a customer base that feels confident buying any animals I decide not to keep. And I feel like the more information I can give, and the closer their animal looks to it's WC counterpart, the better chance I'll have of moving that animal if I desire.
Wow... this is long... are you still reading this? Really? Why? lol
I'll shut up now. I feel like my position has been WELL documented here and anything I left out could probably be assumed fairly accurately based on what I DID say.
Good stuff!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*
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A few thoughts on this subject... - Jonathan_Brady, Tue Dec 16 21:01:34 2008
