Ernie wrote;
"AR groups have attacked, infiltrated and exploited the pet industry for many decades . What your pointing out is different then what I'm saying. I'm speaking in terms of introducing anti ownership / trade legislation. There has never been a case where pro ownership and activist have teamed up to co author and introduce this type legislation. It's always been them against us. "

With "us" you refer to herpetoculturits or animal keepers in general? or do you mean "us normal people".

What happened in norway after we got our ban was the animal owners got divided into four categories;
- legal responsible keepers, who respect the law and keep their animals responsibly.
- legal irresponsible keepers, who keep legal animals in a legal manner but due to flaws in the law, they keep animals either very substandard or they keep animals which should be free, like primates or cobras for example.
- illegal responsible keepers, who keep for example leopard geckoes in a responsible manner, but who still keep animals in irresponsibly since reptiles are forbidden to keep.
- illegal irresponsible keepers, who keep legal or illegal animals in a criminal very bad manner.

Taking in account that animal welfare standards are not constant but normally on the rise towards better standards. It may be hard to identify the "us" in your argument.
In your use of "us" you include yourself, your fellow reptile keepers and other responsible animal keepers and partners in the pet industry. In the AR use of "us" all other animal keepers and the rest of the pet industry may be included but if you are the target you are "them", the irresonsible snake keepers who often smoke joints and sometimes let their animals escape and populate the everglades.

Perhaps not on purpose, but at least in consequence, The AR movement in Norway somehow divided the animalkeepers into two disproportionate groups and played them up against each other. Without using this strategy they could not have hoped to reach their goal and pass their blanket ban.
Back in the early 1970ies select pet shops in Oslo offered african cobras for display and sale.
The AR movement grabbed hold of peoples natural fear of venomous snakes and filled a hot air balloon with it. They used peoples fear of snakes to coin a ban against "foreign (exotic) species of mammals, reptiles, frogs, toads and salamander".
A general exception to this ban is our current "houseanimal list", on this list appear animals like cows, rabbits and chinchillas and a few more, 30 or so species in total.
Note that fish, invertebrates and birds are not part of our ban.
In our 1977 ban almost herpetoculturists, primate keepers and exotic-big-cat owners were targeted.
The AR movement played the vast majotity of farmers and companion animal owners up against a very small segment of animals keepers. In doing that, the AR activists gained the active cooperation of these parties.
I figure invertebrates weren´t targeted in our first ban because of lobster farmers who are defended by the farmers association.
The AR acivists teamed up with the farmers industry, in gaining their support, and constructive input. In turn invertebrates were left out of the ban, leaving also bee farmers and crayfish farmers in peace .

Ernie wrote;
" There has never been a case where pro ownership and activist have teamed up to co author and introduce this type legislation. It's always been them against us. This is because nether side had anything to gain from working with the other."

I would argue that peace is the biggest prize in this context. In order not to be targeted by a ban, support it in order to be left in peace.
This is the "easy" solution to dealing with AR activists, respect them and don´t oppose them, and they will leave you be as long as you support them on other arenas. Be you a cat-(ab)user, you will get peace peace and respect from AR activists if you are a valuable anti-fur activist, or anti meat activist for that matter.

I also think that the borders between use and exploitation are a little blurry in respect to dealing with AR activists. Do AR activists use or exploit each other or do they cooperate? In the same manner, do the AR movement use or exploit the pet industry, or do they cooperate?

In order to reach my conclusion I have to argue that the the farmers association and the pet industry are two different sides of the same thing. You are a reptile farmer, and as such you should be protected by the farmers association in my oppionion, but in selling your stock you are also an important piece in the pet industry.
With that in mind, in the 1970ies the norwegian farmers association had almost no clue that there could be any value in defending reptilekeeping (them) as long as the lobster industry or the other "normal farmers" (us) weren´t affected.
In consequence, the whole agricultural community supported the AR activists when they coined our snakeban (or "foreign (exotic) species" ban).

I think the AR activists behave much like King Louie in Disneys movie about the junglebook. King Louie asks Mowgli to teach him to make fire but doesn´t reveal his intentions. In stead he camouflages his approach in dance and happiness.
Just imagine how much happier your reptiles would be, if they were free.
I thought about that a lot while I was in jail (for keeping illegal geckoes) and read a few books on the topic.

Trouble is, while you are a law abiding reptile farmer now, after HR669 you will be a central person in a criminal network that trades in endangered foreign (exotic) species. This is a terrible crime, in consideration to the worlds declining reptile populations and the wave of extinction which threatens the biological diviersity on our Earth. Our world is also mine and in my world you have no right to steal animals out of their natural environment for your own personal amusement.

As long as they are on attack, and we on defence, the AR will always find cooperating parties within the pet industry, especially after an irrational ban of some kind has been past.
In the US alot of people are keeping tigers and lions but since your nation is so big, a very small percentage of your society keeps lions and tigers. A small percentage of society is very easy to discriminate, especially when tigers have cute eyes and sharp teeth.
I don´t know if three times will be the charm but the smaller segments in animal husbandry are the favoured targets of the AR movement. Reptile keepers represent around 0.5-1% out of the american population, a fairly easy group to discriminate.
If you are looking for peace from AR activists, you live in the wrong nation. If HR669 is passed then you will be an even more favorable target, then the AR can attack you directly with the law at hand.
If you want to have peace, replace your animals with legal ones, or move to another country. Otherwise you have to fight or cooperate to get peace, can you really blame them? the parts of your reptile industry who to some degree support the AR activists, I mean. The largest reptile breeders or largest pet shops are easy pickings for the AR industry.
In recognition of the AR movements ability to draw either positive or negative media focus towards events and organisations, we have to grant the AR ability to draw a ton of bad publicity towards a pet shop chain. Small petshops they can easily put out of business even without a ban. Cooperation may be either the easiest or only way to survive an AR attack for a small business.

Recently several of the largest fur farmers in Norway were pushed into voluntary bankrupcy. In the end they just surrendered on certain termes, that their animals would not be released in the wild and not killed. who bought the hundreds of animals I don´t know, but they were sent out of the country I think.

With every successful attack, the AR movement kill some of the diversity in animal husbandry.
In my oppinion vegans are monsters pretending to be vegetarians. They feed on the unhappiness of the people and animals they oppress.
In their defence it should be noted that they have achieved admirable things in american animal husbandry history. For starters they have significantly raised the animal welfare standards of farm animals in the meat industry.
One other positive side of the american AR movement is that they push people to respect their duties towards animals.

In a twisted way, you can only enjoy your right to keep your reptiles as long as you respect your duties towards yours and other animals.
This must be the logic of sustainable development in the mind of the avegage animal keeper in order to ensure the long term existence of responsible animal husbandry in your society.
In a diverse and culture-rich society such as yours, lives a diverse interest in the diversity of animals. A civilisation´s moral integrity may amongst other things be judged by the level of it´s compassion towards animals.
Some nations ban certain types of animal husbandry due to compassion towards animals, and I would argue that yours is slowly but steadily becoming one of them.

Reptiles are the natural choice of companion animals amongst urban youth in cramped US megacities. In many, respects reptiles and reptile keeping are growing more popular, but in the same time frame the AR movement are also gaining ground, by how much you figure.
If the majority of your congresmen oppose HR669, there will be a world of folks out there who will feel that the government is doing nothing to stop pythons from populating the everglades. If you succeed, and stop HR669, it is because they have underestimated you, that would be a joyful reason to celebrate on the 24th of april.
But fear also that next time around you may experience the undivided attention of AR friends and their advocated.
Looking back to the Catskill animal sanctuary upcoming events calendar;

"Friday, April 24 and Saturday, April 25

An Earth Day celebration at Grand Central Terminal in NYC. S"
- http://www.casanctuary.org/cas/events

Regards
oby

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