>>To my mind, one has to look at the differences between eastern and western populations of alterna. All of your point apply to a much greater extent to the eastern populations, which are much more contiguous (connected by corridors of good habitat).

>>

>>In the west things are quite different. Alpine, Xmas, River Road, Davis, BG, etc are all isolated from one another by large expanses of unsuitable habitat, so that gene flow between them is a rare event. And the "look" of animals from each locale reflects this.



This still seems like a very knowledgeable herper's speculation to me. IOW, a very good untested hypothesis. (Though, you're probably right, Brad.) Goodness knows that studying the ecology and phylogeography of these critters would make an excellent dissertation or thesis (something has to account for all of that variation we see). Good points.



Joe, you've probably already thought of this, but I tell you what would be really cool -- to organize some sort of phylogeographic genetics study with breeders on the alterna page. I'm sure we have enough well-documented localities on the alterna page to get enough WC (and even F1) shed skins to send to a particular university where a student could tackle this. All we'd need is for someone who's willing to volunteer contacting breeders on the web page to solicit shed skins and give them an address where to send the sheds.



I know Gerry Salmon collects shed skins and sends them to Cornell for this very reason. Apparently, you can get the genetic data from the skins and even do scale counts. Of course, photo vouchers for each shed help too (for one thing -- the colors don't fade). I'm sure there are many ways we could fund the student(s)' research too...of course, right off the bat, you wouldn't have any of the big expenses that it would take to go out and collect, since the specimens are already collected. It's just a thought, but one very feasible, and given the reputability and organization of the alterna page, it seems it should be put to use for these kinds of studies! Especially since HCU is con bio oriented, you can't do conservation work really well unless you understand the population genetics of a species.



With enough sheds, this would be a perfect ready-made Master's project for a student who wouldn't need to do field work to get it done.



>>Both "genetic drift" and normal selection pressure exert their strongest influence on such isolated populations.



Yeah, that's exactly my point for why some of the western populations like you mention could (and should) have new varieties pop up occasionally (and why they would be very plastic). The more genetic drift that has an influence, the more inbreeding occurs, the more selection would have an influence, and the more new "looks" would pop up in those more isolated populations, unless they found a way to disperse.





>>That's why I myself spend little time in the east-I just find the western alterna (and not incidenaltly subocs) more interesting, even though they may be harder to find.



Yeah, I agree -- definitely a ton of variation where you have yellow limestone meets red igneous west of Lajitas and in the Christmases.



I guess I'm mostly just saying that ultimately you just have to do your homework and trust a breeder's word (so, nothing too original or ingenious, right? LOL)...in no way am I suggesting to abandon the alterna page idea, because it has helped many people who collect to find reputable breeders. But of course, the alterna page, for all of its pluses, isn't the end-all-be-all for some people, and I'm sure you'll find honest locality breeders who either don't know about it or choose not to post their info there. Again, I'm being Captain Obvious today. :D



Dusty

[ Show Entire Thread ]