**Also, the tree with the nice pictures is great. BUT, it is still only as reliable as the persons doing them. Anyone can manipulate the pictures into any organization they choose to. Sure, it may help but there is still no guaranty that some fraud will not happen. **



I'm glad you have brought this point up again. As many times as I kept trying to hammer that point home, it seems to have been lost. We can require all manner of 'proof' but ANYTHING can be manufactured.



**I do not want to start a rant here but, no matter what a person does to legitimize a locality critter or offspring it will always boil down to whether or not people trust what they are being shown or told. A person's integrity is a very important part of this whole equation. If you loose people's trust, you will have a tough row to hoe from that point on.**



I would go even further and state that if someone is legit, has the proof, keeps records, supplies records to buyers, etc., EVEN they are not above reproach and could still accidentally or on purpose 'cook the books.' NO ONE can be sure of the actions of another unless they are with them 24/7 and watch their breedings taking place, is with them as they walk up on an alterna, etc.



**Alternas have become a popular specie to work with and this specie will eventually go the same way Red Ratsnakes and Honduran Milksnakes have gone.**



I guess that's true. Really, I'm worried more about the muddying of wild populations of hill country Sceloporus by the infusion of genes from Baja blue rock lizards. AlternA are indeed a popular specieS. However, the way they go is really up to us. If we retain bloodlines/localities then we will always have them, regardless of how specialized or bottlenecked the gene pool becomes. Further, the 'common' population in captivity will have no relationship whatsoever or will pose no threat to the locality population as long as it is maintained by the keepers. Additionally, the popularity of sports and the like can only serve to introduce the specieS to new people who might become so interested in them from the 'oddballs' that they might fall in love with localities as well, infusing more intrest in that portion of the hobby. It is not necessary to demonize mutants. There can be a place for them as well.



**Sooner or later the only alterna that will look like true "locality" snakes will be the wild caught snakes. I am seeing pictures of snakes from breedings that I have NEVER seen the likes of in wild caught snakes from the locality they are supposed to be. I have bred locality snakes and I have never had offspring that looked totally different from the parents. Seeing triple triads on "locality" Hueco alterna offspring? Something up there! **



Again, this is a matter of opinion. The 'look' of the alterna is really a moot point. What someone catches in the wild doesn't necessarily bear any resemblance whatsoever to what someone produces in captivity. Unless you catch a gravid female, come upon a wild hatching clutch, etc., you do not know what is produced in the wild. Your experiences are skewed because what you catch is an animal that has survived predation and various other factors which don't exist in our snake rooms. What ends up being the breeding population in the wild is what determines the dominant 'form.' It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about what offspring are produced. From an evolutionary standpoint, an organism would WANT extreme variety in its offspring on the assumption that one individual might be more fit because of a mutation or pattern difference. Is it hard to understand that what you collect in the wild has been exposed to other pressures that might not allow you to see all of the possible varieties that might be produced in the neonates? It makes me very angry when people doubt a locality claim based upon how an animal looks. The second you produce a clutch in captivity and keep ANY of the babies back, let alone the ones you think are the best looking, you have skewed from nearly anything you would see in the wild. It is a very distorted belief that because you haven't seen anything like it then it must not exist. Black Gaps for example have been selectively bred for several generations. At this point anything is possible from that gene pool. Your example of Hueco animals not having triple alternates - obviously the genes controling triple alternates are present somewhere in the genome, and were present in the genome for many thousands of years, otherwise we wouldn't see anything like that now. There are wild populations that have triple alternates. Why is it so difficult to believe that that gene wasn't present in the ancient population before it became separated in the Huecos, and now that we are line breeding them it happens to reassert itself?



**I think we all want to make the "best" looking alterna ever. I do not have a problem with that. BUT, for crying out loud, lets play fair and honest. **



Agreed. I just don't believe it is fair and honest to doubt someone's locality claim because they have aberrant river roads or roadmap Langtry's when all they have been doing is selectively breeding the 'best' stock?

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