**It appears to me that you guys are tugging all around the real issue here. The issue is trust. You mention you could take a hundred pictures and post them with data and people should take your word for it. That should be the case BBBUUUUTTTTT, it appears people do not TRUST you at this point. **



I haven't been tugging on it, I've been yanking the *$@! out of it. I've tried to hit on this point ad nauseum.



**Believe it or not there are a lot of people out there that have extensive experience with these critters. There is a huge pile of information including collection data, pictures, papers, and personal observations of collectors that have proven, over the years, to be not only right but above reproach.**



Ok, I believe you. Did I say something to the contrary?



**I personally know some of the people that have captured Hueco animals. I have seen the live animals and have seen pictures of others. I trust the collectors.**



That is the point. However, why should we believe them? Why would rpelaz believe them? TRUST. Why should anyone trust rpelaz? I don't think it is possible to catch 8 alterna in one trip to TX. I think that some of those animals are captive born and not wild. I've seen the pictures, heard the story, but I still don't believe. So I choose not to trust r 'eight is great' pelaz. It is just that in all my experience and from everything I've been led to believe it is not possible to catch this many alterna in so few nights. So, because it is not my experience and because it is not the experience of many others, I don't believe it to be the truth. Make sense?



**Not one of them even had a hint of speckles or triple alternates. You mention the argument that maybe the speckled and triple alternated snakes may be at a disadvantage and are not surviving in the wild so there are not any collected. I would think that if that were the case, wouldn't the gene eventually be bred out of the wild animals. **



NO! Are you really making that argument? People with spina biffida are at a disadvantage, people with cystic fibrosis are at a disadvantage, dogs with hip displasia are at a disadvantage...why haven't these genes been bred out of their populations?



**Also, if speckles is a problem for the specie why are there other locality populations that have numerous speckled and triple alternated snakes being collected.**



You are making my point. Speckles ARE present in the specieS. Perhaps they are simply selected against in that microenvironment for whatever reason. The fact that speckles are present should tell you that it MIGHT be possible for them to occur in wild Hueco's.



** You seem to trust DJ so much about his animals and believe him, ask yourself - Does he have a single picture of the wild specimens he collected that has speckles or trip alternates????? I do not think so. If so show me.**



So what? Do your kids have any birthmarks? Can you show me a picture of a birthmark on you or your wife that would lead me to believe that you produced a kid with that birthmark? Anything might be produced from any parent. Phenotypic traits only serve to provide strong influence on what will be expressed in the offspring.



**Once again pictures, field notes, snake room documentation, and anything else you can think of will not ever make up for a loss of TRUST. **



Exactly - then a few sentences ago, why were you from Missouri? What good would showing you do?



**There is an old saying "Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me." I feel very confident that I have never been screwed twice by the same person. Maybe we should all take up that philosophy. LOL ??**



Exactly again. As far as I know, neither I nor Dan (and believe me I am not remotely putting myself in the same league as Dan) have ever screwed anyone...so why would either of our words be questioned?

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