Posted by:
OHI
at Thu Nov 25 02:16:47 2010 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by OHI ]
Aaron’s comments in quotes:
“I say ban commercial collection and you say banning agenda. What's the difference?”
You said, that I said, HCU was trying to actively ban commercial collection. I never said that. I said that HCU does not support the collection of herps for the purpose of sale and that is selling out the herp industry because the herp industry does support the collection of herps for the purpose of sale. Additionally, I might add, banning the sale of wild caught is the banning agenda so if you don’t support it what does that say? I said the White and Black list is banning agenda. We already have a regulation in place that protects species it is called the Endangered and Threatened List. We do not need a White and Black List. It is regulation for the sake of regulation thus banning agenda. Further, when one looks at the White and Black List it is easy to see that the species popular in the herp hobby are on the White List (should they be?) while species that are not popular in the hobby are on the Black List (with the exception of turtles). This was done so nobody would about the White and Black List. This shows that it is a regulation just for the sake of regulation. And many amphibian species that are abundantly common and widespread are on the Black List. This shows regulation for the sake of regulation because these species have no collection threat. HCU supports the idea of the White and Black Lists thus they support the banning agenda.
“You keep saying HCU has a banning agenda, if I took that to mean banning commercial collection how can you blame me?”
No, I said HCU supports “the banning agenda” not that they have a banning agenda or that they are pursuing a banning agenda. Because HCU does not support wild herp collection for the purpose of sale. This position is held by many academics and many at TPWD. They don’t believe a wild animal should be sold. Their beliefs or moral judgments should not interfere with management decisions. Since the herp industry does support the right to sell wild caught herps. Then taking away the right to do so would be a ban. The “banning agenda” is any action taken against the herp industry that would prevent it from functioning. We can expand on that definition over time. I didn’t say you guys were actively pursing banning commercial collection. Never have. I am saying you support the banning agenda by your stances. Not that you have specific legislation you are seeking. I blame you because you are not reading or not understanding what I am saying. I have repeated the same things for three years now. I have many folks who say they agree with me, that I speak the truth and that they understand what I am saying but you guys seem to be in denial or I suck as a writer or both.
“Another thing is you are taking things that members have done with their own time and money and blaming it on HCU. What one or a few members do on their own time does not constitute an HCU agenda.”
I never said what members do is an HCU agenda. I said HCU supports the banning agenda by supporting the White and Black List. I have also said that you are a hypocrite if you buy, sell and trade herps and are a member of HCU. HCU does not support the collection of wild caught for the purpose of sale. I blame HCU for trying to kiss TPWD butt by selling out the herp industry.
“As I understand it the member you spoke of did not use HCU to ban collection of box turtles. He did it through another organization that had nothing to do with HCU. HCU has never sought to ban collection box turtles.”
What I am saying is the HCU is full of hypocrites. This particular member is not only a hypocrite but a sell out as well. He supports the banning agenda. What I am saying is that your group has a disproportionately high amount of hypocrites and sell outs who support the banning agenda. It is not about HCU itself it is about its members. Now, I know there are some members of HCU that actually don’t sell wild caught. They are true to that resolution in your Constitution but many of those folks support the banning agenda by supporting box turtles being on the Black List. So most of your members are either hypocrites or sell outs or both, in my opinion.
“If a member of USARK was for banning collection box turtles and pursued it on their own time or with a separate organization would you condemn USARK even if USARK wasn't for banning box turtles?”
No because of what I explained above. A disproportionately high amount of HCU members are either hypocrites or sell outs. USARK supports the entire industry where HCU doesn’t. If you go by position statements and constitutions USARK supports all aspects of the herp industry whereas HCU doesn’t. Now, both organizations will take any member that pays. It has to do with the moral convictions and the stances of the members. Since many HCUers buy or sell wild caught they SHOULD not join but they did. This shows what kind of people joined HCU.
“Hence your thing about the safety net doesn't apply either because HCU is not seeking to ban the breeding of box turtles either.”
The ban on captive propagation of native Texas turtles (safety net) has nothing to do with HCU specifically other then the members who supported it and the banning agenda.
“Nor is it hypocritical for an HCU member to sell a wc animal. That sentence does not tell members what they can and can't do on their own time. It tells people that HCU, the organization, does not promote wc sales. What that means is that HCU, the organization, does not use it's influence or money to promote the sales of wc's.”
If you join an organization you do so because you support their position statements. HCU is not an organization with no members. It is a reflection of its members. So one would think that only people who don’t buy or sell wild caught would join but that is not the case. Further, the decision to not support the sale of wild caught was done purely to kiss TPWD butt. This is quite obvious since many members buy or sell wild caught. Now, I understand that there are some members who don’t sell wild caught but a majority do. So members would rather sell out the herp industry and kiss TPWD butt then admit what they do? That is hypocritical and sell out behavior. Why don’t they stand up for their activities? Why don’t they stand up against the banning agenda? That’s my question!
“I understand that you don't like the fact that HCU doesn't promote commercial collecting but that doesn't justify you making personal attacks on certain members by calling them hypocrites.”
I call them like I see them. I will fight to protect the herp industry from outsiders or insiders who are selling us down the river. I am upset with HCUers because they are sell outs and hypocrites. That is bad for the herp industry especially now that we are under attack from AR leaning academics, biologists and AR groups themselves. I am also upset with HCUers because when I proved my points on the forums. I got slandered and lies spread about me and other rude behavior. Not only are most members hypocrites and sell outs but they are “not nice people” too. All just because I was correct. I told you guys you would need to buy and sell wild caught. But you guys claimed you didn’t. Now you say that the Constitution is not a rule preventing members from selling wild caught. You guys are back pedaling.
“You are using the things that members do on their own time and with their own money, pursuing their own agenda that is separate from anything HCU does, and applying it to HCU. That is not fair to HCU.”
Again HCU is a reflection of its members. The evidence is overwhelming. You say you don’t support the sale of wild caught, wink, wink to appease TPWD. You support the White and Black List to appease TPWD wink, wink. Meanwhile your members are buying and selling wild caught. Meanwhile turtle dealers and breeders got screwed.
“As far as the white and black list, it is possible to support the concept of it and still disagree with what goes in what category.”
Yes, it is but the concept is wrong and as I explained above we already have an Endangered and Threatened List. Regulation for the sake of regulation.
“The member you spoke of who you say supports it has also said he only supports prohibiting the collection of a species only when they have real data that shows a species needs protection from collection.”
If they could prove that it needed protection then they would have enough data to get it listed Endangered or Threatened. The data is not there. Further, reasonable bag limits could have been put in place rather then going from one extreme to another. That is over regulation and banning agenda. It is well known that academia had been pushing the banning agenda for turtles. I have heard misleading and false statement from them in regards to number of clutches per year and number of years until sexual maturity. They say that turtles can’t be sustainably harvested. That is a load of BS. And you guys believe them. Why not put in some reasonable bag limits until they can conduct in depth studies? Instead of banning agenda, unacceptable!
“That is a very significant point that adds context; by you leaving that out it totally changes the meaning of what he said which is also not fair.”
No, because the entire White and Black List concept is garbage. We already have lists they are called Endangered and Threatened.
Aaron, you know what you and Brad’s problem is? You let in the herpocrites to your group. I can understand you and him blindly following academia’s AR agenda but you no darn well that the sale of wild caught issue is big. You have said before that you did it to show TPWD that all the people in west Texas are not commercial collectors. They get the collecting logs and they know who does what. Except those that don’t report what they do. This needs to change. Almost all the Texas commercial dealers report. It is the out of state ones that don’t. It is also the hobbyist collectors that don’t. You also know darn well that the problem is not that you sell an animal but how many you take. You also know darn well that almost everyone collecting west Texas is not over harvesting. You guys should have picked some better position statements instead of using the Ducks Unlimited format. They don’t catch the ducks alive, breed and sell them. You also shouldn’t have tried to keep folks activities a secret. By not standing up for sustainable harvest of any species not listed as Endangered or Threatened, supporting the right to sell wild caught and proudly supporting the herp industry you have yourselves in a pickle. We must always keep the door open to sustainably collect and sell all herps not listed Endangered or Threatened.
Welkerii
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Ok I was bored so I answered LONG! - OHI, Thu Nov 25 02:16:47 2010
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