Posted by:
DMong
at Wed Apr 25 13:42:52 2012 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by DMong ]
Very cool you are thinking about adding a nice hypo tangerine to your collection. However, allow me to point out and clarify a few things regarding your comment on the "M" pattern on the snake's chin......
Your snake probably is only "part" L.t.hondurensis like you mentioned, even though it probably keys-out absolutely fine meristic-wise as a L.t.hondurensis. This is actually no different than the VAST majority of the countless hundreds of thousands of them out in the hobby mainstream today either, including the on'es I have in my collection too. Some of the specific percetages will always vary of course too depending on what their previous parental lineage consisted of, and whatever someone decided to breed them to as well as time went on and they exchanged hands. Heck, the vast majority out there are "partly" authentic hondurensis, that's really just an automatic given. If you click on my site at the bottom of my signature, there on the home page is a detailed explanation of todays "Hobby Hondos" and how they actually evolved to what they are in today's hobby. L.t.hondurensis is only one portion of their genetic equation to be quite honest.
There is only TWO known authentic L.t.hondurensis bloodlines known to exist in the hobby today. One is a very old generic tangerine bloodline that was NEVER out-crossed to all the countless other bloodlines and morphs, and the other is a known bloodline from central Nicaragua (also shown in the Hondo blog we did). Except there are only a few of Scott's authentic central Nicaraguan bloodline out there in the hobby......and I do mean ......VERY FEW!!!. As a matter of fact, the forum poster Gerry (username gerryg) that just recently posted has a couple of Scott Ballard's central Nicaraguan L.t.hondurensis.
The chin pattern/shape in the Central/Latin milks can be quite variable and extremely similar in several of the tropical milks too, so just because a milksnake happens to basically display a similar looking chin doesn't necessarily mean anything as to it's genuine subspecific authenticity. There's just no way to go solely by what a chin does or doesn't look like. Meristic science is more of the combining of as many of the key characteristics and features you see, along with certain scale counts to get a full overall conclusion of what subspecies something might actually be. But when they are so damn mixed up with several subspecies as they have always historically been for decades now, there is simply just NO WAY to identify what most of them actually consist of.
I am quite sure that the very first so-called "tangerine dream" Hondurans that Bill Love acquired from a lady in Miami back in the 80's that imported them from here place of origin (Honduras) were in fact true L.t.hondurensis, even though she had them labeled as "coral snakes"..LOL!, but since those times they have all been crossed into countless other intergrade combinations. So unless some of those were never out-crossed, those are definitely no longer un-compromised either and are just like all the others out there, i.e "hobby Hondos"
Anyway, the chin pattern alone is by NO means any solid indicator of authentic L.t.hondurensis "purity" just because it resembles an "M".
Even the old anerythristic specimen I used to depict the "M" pattern in the blog Ross and I did recently very likely had other ssp. influence in it. I strongly suspect L.t.stuarti and polyzona was involved with these early old-school anery's from many years ago, but no way of literally proving this in court..LOL! I can only surmise and assume this from the phenotype characteristics I have seen in many of the offspring I produced from the older original line years ago that Brian Barczyk had in the 90's, as well as what many other anery's looked like, especially in the earlier years. It's just an automatic given that they were bred to almost any other Latin type milk resembling a "hondo" of any kind back then anyway so more of these could be produced.
I am thinking that some folks that see the blog and compare it with any type of "M" pattern on their hobby type Hondos will think they have truly athentic L.t.hondurensis, when that is definitely not the actual case at all. I only used that photo because it is indeed a very typical look for L.t.hondurensis to display, but by no means is the only look they can display on their chins. It is also very similar to the holotype animal illustration used in ~Systematics~ by Kenneth L. Williams, that's all. It wasn't in the blog to portray that my anery was a 100% genuine L.t. hondurensis by ANY stretch of the imagination. I was merely depicting what many classic Honduran chins do look like, nothing more. There are many other things that have to be considered as well.
Anyway, best of luck with getting your nice Hobby Hondo, but just don't ever consider them as 100% authentic L.t.hondurensis.
If you click on my site below there in my signature and scroll down a bit on the home page, you will find a detailed history of how these snakes have evolved into what they are today. It's entitled "about Honduran milksnakes in the hobby:"
cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing" 
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
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RE: What is Your Temp? - DMong, Wed Apr 25 13:42:52 2012
