Posted by:
FR
at Thu Feb 28 11:13:21 2013 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by FR ]
Hi Gregg.
You do not like the way I post because I question YOU, and you must defend yourself. Consider, I do not call you names. Or say, I do not like how you write. I simply ask you to question yourself. And you refuse. Instead you attack.
I never stated that you say hogs don't eat rodents. I am attempting to make a point and to do that, I wanted you to state that they do included mice in their diet. Once WE reach that point, we can move on and continue to make a point.
You don't like my posts because I am not like many here, you guys want to make a statement, and its done. Well folks(sir) we have living animals here and they are a BAG of different behaviors, and its not done, until the subject says its done. Nothing you or I say, means a whole lot until applied to the animals. So yes, you don't like to think and I am going to cause you to think.
What bothers me about YOU and others here(and on many forums) is you feel you are so important that what you say has meaning. And you think that of me. Again, theres no meaning until applied to the animals successfully. Of course you don't like it. I do not take you(and others here, or I all that seriously)
With that in mind, I never asked you to like what I say or more importantly, like me. As its not about us. Lastly, I am only rude, if attacked. and yes, if attacked, I attack back. Sorry raised that way. If your going to F with me, I will F with you back. And only because its fun. Think of it this way, When you come out swinging, like you did with your, I had enough BS. and you did that. Your BS about me not liking Taxonomy. I never said it was BS, like you said. There are indeed areas I do not agree with. In FACT every taxo person i know, does not agree with the other Taxo folks. No one ever said we are suppose to agree with everything or anything. SO I will stop this now, and I only did it because You did, in fact you ended your post with this crap and that means you emphasis(sp) on that. I on the otherhand, will leave up here, as the animals are what is important. When you attack, that is, make it about me or others, its no longer about the animals and that makes it time for fun if necessary. And yes, I will be your huckleberry(to play along) if necessary.
Temps, In nature, there is no such animal as 84F or room temp or a hotspot in the low 90's. On one study site, we took Internal body temps(cloacal)(there is no such animal as core body temps, thats a mammal thing) for 18years. In all that time, CT(cloacal temps) were rarely 84F or thereabouts. They ranged from the high thirties to the high ninties.(hard facts)
Commonly science likes to quantify, that is to average large numbers of data points. Which works in many areas, just not with herps. And particularly with this subject. A serious thought comes to mind, the average animal in nature FAILS. THe superior continues.
In a nutshell, temps related to tasks. The highest CT's were with individuals that had food bolus. Also, during different stages of reproduction. THe very hottest CT's were with gravid females with large food bolus.
While there is no law that governs this, smaller bolus, lower temps, larger bolus, higher temps. Hard to digest items, higher temps, easy to digest items, lower temps. THere are TRENDS.
What I am saying is, the temps we keep reptiles at a AVERAGE. they are very much in the middle of in the middle of what we see in nature.
With that in mind, your asking your animals, to open up what they do, when your keeping them controlled in a middle enviornment. YOu asking for a wide range of natural behaviors, in a narrow range of conditions. Thats not going to happen, reptiles depend on conditions for all their abilities.
Reptiles, have a range of potential in overall size, speed of growth, amount and quality of reproduction, and longevity, all depending on supporting conditions. THis is known.
Yet your saying, temps do not effect feeding, when you admit it does effect feeding. Is your head hurting now, as it should be. THINK. Temps alone effect hunger, hunger drives feeding response.
Exposure to higher temps, stimulates hunger, exposure to cooler temps decreases hunger. And your saying that increased hunger levels will not increase the range of prey items within an inherent range. I will say, a hungry snake, will indeed attempt to eat your face, muchless a pinkie.
We all know that in captivity, we can train our captives to consume our hands. You know, you pick them up and they will attempt to eat your hands. Are you saying they will eat people naturally????? They also learn what food is.
The actual point is, under your conditions(very average) they will do what you say. I am not calling you a lair, I am saying, you do not understand first reptile behavior, and then how to test. In order to see something different, you really must get out of your comfort zone. You need to ACT like you do not know anything. JUST TEST. THe problem with "good" keepers is, they are success driven. And tend to stick with what works. Which is great, but, its not just what works, its what works and is convienent, and what I can house a hundred snakes in the bathroom closet(joke). The way you keep snakes is based on YOU, not them.
None of that has a thing to do with the animals and nature. At a HOGNOSE site, daily available temps, exceeded 150F on anyday that was not cloudy. In special interest, hogs perfered to move out on sunny days. Cloudy days effected the numbers quickly. Again, the active temp range on a hognose site with active hogs was, aprox mid 40's to the 150F range. That is what THEY DO.
So I will ask again, how does your cages compare to that? And why do you expect your captives to reflect what is natural to them, when you keep them in a way that is un-natural to them.
THe POINT, until you test your animals in conditions that are natural to them(where they evolved to live) you are just recieving prejudiced results. They are accurate, in those conditions. Which is foreign to natural conditions.
Also, testing needs to be done to failure, not minimum success. If not done, you really have no idea of what is minimum and what is maximum.
You and others are making assumptions that wild snakes ONLY use the temps you provide, that sir is a false assumption. THey in reality, use temps above and below what you provide.
The reality is, a healthy snake will eat anything remotely within its inherent guide. Go look on KS, ks forum, on, why did this snake do this.
If yours are not, its not about them, its about you and your controls. I am not saying they are bad, just limited.
Overall, the problem is, when you say, these snakes do this, it would be OK. if you also said, in my conditions. but when you guys say, THEY(the snakes) do this, your talking about ALL hogs wild and captive and there your totally wrong. As a field herper, THEY means to me, those naturally occuring as well as captives.
Just a tiny tiny example, I have three WC neonate hogs, all in sweater boxes, they are in my incubator room. It was 84F(middle of the room, cooler by the walls. All three ate scented pinks. about twice a week, I then upped the room to 86F and all three ate unscented pinks and fuzzies, every other day. My adult pair are in conditions where the temps range from the lowest 39F to the mid 150's. My son also has a pair of neonate westerns(albino and het) and they too ate scented until he upped the temps, then moved right to unscented pinks and fuzzies(small ones)
THere are many reasons that small neonates, compromised neonates, may have a narrow range of items, and they are based on ability. Ability to digest, ability to swallow, ability to kill. And a possible ability to defend yourself. I always wondered how stupid it would be for a neonate snake to crawl into a wild rodent nest. Without question, temps effect those abilities and the ability to escape, which is of prime importance to wild snakes. So yes, some individuals, may require training to get past the danger zone. Thanks for playing best wishes
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RE: For Gregg, temps and feeding - FR, Thu Feb 28 11:13:21 2013