Hi Gregg, let me try again, I cannot tell you what all snakes do, or all hogs do, but I can tell you what the ones I work or have worked with do.



Theres something odd about field herping, compared to captive husbandry, and its apparent with this and the thread down below on nesting with Steve.



That is, in the field, you do not prejudice data or observations. That is, if you observe a clutch of snake eggs. Say buried 14 inches from the surface, in a chamber, with no tunnels or exits that are apparent. That observation is IMPORTANT, its real, its fact, its our base.



If you can add data, such as, X temps, X humidity, slope, angle. Elevation, direction of exposure, etc. Those are also fact and add to the observation.



To prejudice data is to assume the snake did this or that for various reasons, that is prejudicing the data, as we actually have no idea if those prejudices are valid or not



. The observation is what it is. To say, it could it be this or could it be that, is also prejudicing data. AS you gather more data, you normally see variation, like the temps being Xplus3 or X minus 4, from the original observation. Same for other data points. Also, as numbers of observations are gathered, you will see a range of these conditions And the important part, certain patterning that is not related to conditions. Like depth, some of these things are prejudiced by the snake(instint)(set behaviors). Nearly all behavior is influenced by both, inherent behavior and conditions, plus experience.



Whats important is sometimes its not about the data, its the act or event, those are first and foremost. The data is suppose to help understand the act, event, behavior. But the data is not suppose to override the act/event/behavior. Or tell it what it is. Data is to help us understand.



In the thread below, with snakes and hognose, in particular, do in certain conditions and go to certain depths, can be instintual.



They can be forced to change those instintual behaviors by exsisting conditions. That forcing or changing of set behaviors, has a range and the amount of that range causes stress on the animal. Sooner or later the stress will cause the snake to fail, or avoid those conditions. This prejudices the snakes. Which means, they avoid areas, materials, events, etc that are stressful to them. This makes them prejudiced to certain conditions, soils etc.



They pick very particular places to nest. The reasons can be measured to a point. But there are many many more reasons. The actual available places to nest are abundant and widespread, by OUR STANDARDS, but not by their standards. They are very particular as to where they nest.



In field studies, things like you guys like, are easy, temps and humidity cause this or that. The problem is, that does not work, that is a simplistic human outlook based on what we think is important. Not whats important to the animals.



THere is now evidence that what is important is HISTORY, more then conditions. That is, most individuals attempt to nest, WHERE they hatched. Its based on simple history. ITs also a simple theory. The individual lived to reproduce, therefore what and where it hatched was chosen and repeated. In otherwords, one value as to why they do what they do is because it worked for them. Our data is an attempt to explain why it works.



That data, often does not. .



Which is what bothers me about You and Steves comments. Both of you commonly use the, it could be this or that, or the other. Again, anyone can say that, But all of us already understood anything is possible, whats important is what is actually the case. Or probable, Not whats possible.



About testing nesting. You guys seem to think that adding a couple inches is a test. I am not sure there is any value in that what so ever, at least in how it relates to the animal. Its only of value if it solves your exsisting problem, or increases your productivity.



If you would test nesting that has a depth past what is known that is all supporting the proper temps and humidity. Then what they chose is a valid test.



My base value was obtained from field experience. All colubrid nests were within 2 feet of the surface. Which supported a test up to 2 feet. Varanid nests commonly exceed two feet, even with small species.



In general, species such as our small lizards nest shallow, as do turtles. They hatch relatively quickly, 24 to 45 days, snakes a little deeper, hatch from 45 to 90 days. Varanids nest much deeper, hatch from 65 to 414 days.(pers. Exper)



There is a pattern to begin testing based on field observation. Yet in captivity, you folks(on average, not all of you) base your approach on a shoebox/sweater box etc. Not on the animals. To me, that makes it about you and nothing to do with the animals. Which is fine. You can do whatever you like.



But it will cause a problem between you and I. As I do not work from captive based systems.



I understand, that your only reason to improve nesting is to help you. It would help you more, if you actually understood what was NORMAL to the animal. If you understood that reproduction is NOT stressful to the female, and does not cause weight loss, and does not cause egg binding. And they do not eat their eggs, then you could understand how to fix the problem.



So many folks say, FR I tested what you do and it did not work. What they did was add two inches thinking, that is what I did. Sorry, if you want to understand why I say what I say, you actually should test to my standards. And that is based on field observations. So if you tested two feet of suitable materials and temps/humidity. Then you can observe the results I speak of. Then you can take away from that to find an condition that fits your own intentions



Sorry for the rant, but no good would come from being nice and saying, yea, adding two inches to your base shallow shoebox, is going to help you understand the animal. ITs not. Test the other extreme, as well. Then compare. Sorry and thanks and no offense. hahahahahahahahahaha yes, I just returned from the field, and it makes me crazy. hahahahahahahahaha

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