you guys must not have seen the post about this snake a few months ago ! heres some info.

Ok, here’s the story! In 1993 a friend of mine was removing an old palm tree that was more of a large bush, in San Clamenta California. When they pulled the tree out, about 4 or 5 of these snakes took off in all directions, but he grabbed one and took it home. Not knowing much about snakes but knowing I have been breeding them for several years he called me up and told me the story and that he thought it was probably a California king snake. Witch by the description sounded likely. After seeing it I thought it was some kind of indigo or cribo. So I took it to show a friend that specializes in drymarchons (indigos and so on) and to our surprise he could not identify it either! Next I took the snake to the professor of herpetology at San Diego State University and after counting scales and doing every thing he could to identify it he couldn’t. So I took it to one of the San Diego reptile shows and showed it to several breeders including Robert Applegate and many others and stumped them all. What else could I do at this point? This snake did not try to bite and was as calm as holding a boa! He ate small dead rats without constricting. I went back to were it was found to look for the others but I never found any. Now the sad part. After having the snake for a few months I had to leave the snake with a friend that breed pythons for a short time while I was moving. My friend, (whom will remain nameless for his protection) let his snake room get to hot and cooked this snake and several others. I have been talking with a few reputable reptile vets that are showing interest in this snake and I have been thinking of going back to were this snake was found with a few people that would like to go help me find some of the ones that got away or there offspring. It is an ideal place that they could live in a small area forever. Please feel free to let me know if you think you can help identify this snake or if you would like to help find the others. These pictures are not the best but a least I have some. I can email more to people that can help. Thanks.

JIM F MCDONALD


Here are a few posts and replies from the kingsnake.com web site.

I think it looks like a Madagascan Hognose (Lioheterodon madagascarensis).

Scary to think that there is a wild population living in California somewhere!
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Chris Harrison

I breed sevral species of hognose, and this snake was not a hognose ! good guess though, I can see the resimbance. thanks.

JIM
More posts and replies.

I'm guessing it's some type of Masticophis. Some localities produce dark phased specimens.
The head looks like a coachwip to me.
Chris
I agree with Chris (from Florida). It's head and body do look Coachwhip-like. Maybe an aberrant M.f.fulginosus or intergradient with M.f.piceus (AND aberrant)? I dunno...cool looking, though. All that stark white is the real killer...you'd think that if it were one of the western races of Coachwhip there would be some pink or yellow or tan pigment in the light areas. The black isn't really all that unusual, but I don't think I've ever seen that much white in a Coachwhip. One thing that's obvious in it's absence for a Coachwhip is the twin rows of dark spots usually present on the venter.
I have cought baja coachwhips in the past and they were very hyper very mean and were lizard eaters! this snake was not hyper ,not aggessive, and would only eat rats. its haed was not as long and thin as a coachwhip, and as you can see in the pictures its belly was mostly all pearl white. it was also much fatter and and not as long and thin as any coachwhip I have seen. thanks for your help.

JIM
Pattern definately looks like a Mad Giant hog as Chris H. said, but the face is definately more Indigo like. I'm going with the other Chris and saying it's a whip. The snake doesn't look bulky and thick-bodied enough to be a Drymarchon. However, that face is really Indigo looking!

However, would a whip fry in a hot snake room while other survived?? OI thought those suckers were tough as nails and liked it hot.


A.C.
"4 or 5 took off out of a bush in all directions"...

This doesn't sound very Drymarchon-like to me.
Granted I've only studied easterns in the wild, they are territorial, and you'd never have 4 or 5 in the same bush that would take off in all directions upon being disturbed.

Sounds very racer-whipsnake-coachwhip-like.

This has me puzzed too and I have checked a couple California snakes websites, and have not really found anything that looks like it.
more posts and replies.

Whipsnakes seem to have a pointy head...I gotta think racer or coachwhip...

If not...I think it's some introduced exotic snake, or this whole post is a hoax or something.

I'm with AC that the head looks Dry-like. The body looks too thin to be Drymarchon though.
i dunno guys, i keep whips and racers and that doesn't look like either to me. the head is way off! i've never seen body markings like that either on a 'whip or whipsnake.....amf, i never saw a snake like that before.....i highly doubt it's indigenous but why were there 5 of them?.......baby cribo feeding report: 19 are now taking rodents left and right but 5 still want minnows. but i'm over the hump at least. 2 males started eating live fuzzies almost immediately after birth . that is pretty unusual but i don't really know if the 'egg scenting' experiment had anything to do w/ that as some of the lids got mixed up in the early going.. 3 eggs were scented so it did not work on at least one.....
?? I think it looks more Masticophis-like, but there is no known sub that looks like that...In CA they should be very red...Plus you said it was CALM!! Wild looking creature...
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas
my friend did keep it in his freezer for a year or so then I lost contact with him for a while and by then he had tossed it! as far as a hoax I dont know the first thing about faking pictures. and I said I would love for some people to go help me catch more of them if there still there ! also these pictures were taken right after I got the snake so he does look a bit thin but after eating a few times he was as big as a golf bal or bigger, much more like a indigo. thanks.


JIM
Just seems too strange to be true in today's day and age where few discoveries of naturally occuring species take place in populated areas. You mentioned some pretty reputable folks who couldn't identify the snakes; puzzling indeed. Sure looks very racer/coachwhip like....perhaps a naturally occuring integrade? It happens quite frequently in our state (southern part of Illinois)..but most of the integrading is within similar subspecies (black and blue racers, speckled kings and black kings for example). There are hints of other species (taiwan beauty snake) but I would be curious as to what this snake is (irregardless of whether this is a hoax or not).
More posts and replies.

Masticophis flagellum fuliginosus - Baja California Coachwhip


Take a look at this link. Looks like it to me. Especially the head.

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/m.f.fuliginosus.html


Happy herping
Brian Baker

The head shot you sent me does look like a Coluber, but the girth is way too thick for that or Masticophis. I'll work on this & post up any results.

~~Greg~~
It is not a Madagascar Hognose (wrong head...wrong pattern) and way too stocky for a coachwhip. I'm still leaning towards a very dark Drymarchon c. rubidus (because of the large eye), but the regularity of the bans makes me question...There are certain Asian snakes that might fit the bill too....strange.............Frank
Looks to me like an indo china Ratsnake...
Genus Ptyas
What did you do with the dead snake?

If you pickled it, maybe you can send it to the New York Musuem of Natural History or some other institution for a thorough work-up.

At any rate, if you find any more, and can breed them, I think a lot of people on this list would be interested in buying any young ones.
Wow,

Me and another friend both agreed that we think its a Coluber(Racer). It might even be a rare morph of the Baja California Coachwhip which does occur in a black coloration at times. I can not give you accurate ID for him. Plus I'm not an expert. But I still thinks its some sort of racer. I'm gonna send these pictures to a friend I know down here that is a herpetologist, and we will see what he thinks. When he gets back with me. I will email you any info he says. Please enclude your email in your next post. THANKS, WILLIAM H. AND THE GREEN PINE MUSEUM.
Green Pine Museum Website

Yeah, I've found a pic of one that looks very similar. One thing you'll notice when looking up baja coachwhips is that most are a white or grayish coloration, some are red, and very few are this particular color, which would probably make people think that it isn't a coachwhip.

As far as the snake taking rats when most only eat frogs or lizards. Well, while it may be somewhat rare for them to eat rodents or mammals, it's not an impossible idea. In fact, I remember seeing a pic on the internet a few years back of a huge coachwhip eating a rabbit in the wild.

The only thing weird that you're explaining is that it's tame, right?. I have never met a tame coachwhip/racer, but like anything else, there are always exceptions.

I can definately see why some people would think this is a madagascer hognose though, because their heads kinda look like that of a hognose, not really anything like the southern black racers we have here.

Hi,
From this picture I can see that its laterally distorted. That threw me off with the one where only your chest is visible and snake looks as fat as a boa. With that in mind and looking at the other pictures. Iam convinced that its an axantic Masticophis flagellum fuliginosus, yellowless Baja coachwhip, ReptileZ has found a good picture of one above. Imagine that snake with no yellow pigment and you have your snake exactly. Personally I have had hand tame coachwhips about that size, but never ones that were good eaters. If you find any more let us know.
axantic Masticophis flagellum fuliginosus, is not even close! I geuss because I had the snake and could see it better then these pictures can show , and I know its temperment and eating habits. its hard for people to get the full picture. these pictures are not that far off. the snake was not half as long as a coachwhip with the same size head and body. its tail was not as long and thin as one and the color is way off. the one only had bands in the middle of ots body, and they are streched twords its head. also as I said before this snake unlike any coachwhip I seen was as calm as a boa, never tried to bite ,and eat rats. and its head not long and thin like a coachwhip. its head was almost as wide as it was long. these pictures wetre taken right after I got it so it does look i bit thin in these pictures. but after eating rats for a few weeks it was more the size of a golf ball or bigger. plus I would think that if this were axantic Masticophis flagellum fuliginosus, that Robert Applegate or some of the other well known breeders that saw the snake first hand would have known or at least geussed that. but they all thought it looked more like a Indigo of some kind . and the professor at San Diego State University after doing scale counts and looking through all his books and his own knolage could not come up with any good ideas. I supose the only way I will know is to go find some more of them! I am going to look for some this Sunday and if I do find some I will be telling you all. Thanks. and fill free to let me know any new thoughts. JIM

And the list goes on and on. After all of this I took the pictures to the SanDiego Reptile show this past October , and showed them again to Robert Applegate, and he showed them to all the other reptile breeders at the show and still nobody can figure this one out.
I have gone back to look a few times and there are new homes were the snake was found, but there is only one untouched valley right behind the houses, that looks like some great habitat . I don’t think I am allowed to use traps here but I did try to contact some people from the USGS but they did not respond. I need some people with some snake hunting skills and some pull to get permission to use traps. And I feel we can find more of these unknown snakes. Please email me or call me and I can give you any more info you may need. Please help me out !!!

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