>>I don't know why this won't post properly, but here goes anyways.......



Exotic and domestic herp species breeding is largely not a problem in most states. The problem arises when people want to breed native species, and that is where the Falconer model comes in...



Falconers have been able to gain enough credibility with the authorities, which I’m sorry to say herpers mostly lack (and we pretty much all know why)...



>>>General agreement here except for this line, "Falconers have been able to gain enough credibility with the authorities, which I’m sorry to say herpers mostly lack (and we pretty much all know why)" NO, we DON'T!!! Why can't you understand this? We don't know why all herpers are vilified by the actions of a few! Are all falconer's vilified by the authorities for the actions of a few falconers that break the law (and don't tell me no falconer has ever broken the law!) If you look at ALL herpers, ie. simple pet keepers with 6 turtles, through the average herp society hobbyist with with a dozen to 50 individual animals, through the hobbyist breeders, pet stores, commercial breeders, and importers/exporters... I'll bet the number of people who actually break the law is minimal. I'd be willing to guess ten percent.



Now we’ll go back to me… yet again! .......

However, because I have stated I work on wildlife law enforcement issues, and because I have advanced degrees in biology, I may as well paint a target on my chest for people in the herp community to throw rocks at!



>>My guess is that any wildlife law enforcement "bashing" that goes on is focused on those individuals within their ranks that are uneducated about herps and their area's herp laws, who are busting people based on interpretations of laws, and IDing of herps! Also those *cowboy* law enforcement officers that go "bust happy". And yes, people do make comments about traffic cops handing out speeding tickets to meet the quota and make money - and yes, it DOES happen! It probably does happen amongst wildlife officials too - should we villify all of *them* for the actions of a few? No, we shouldn't sink to their level!



The third favorite bashing target on this forum ....... are scientists......... I don’t understand why so many people find scientists, who are people that dedicated them selves to the pursuit of knowledge, and who are frankly smart enough to have figured out a way to get paid to do what they love, to be worthy of being bashed as morons who need to be spoon fed reality by people who followed a different path in life and did not discipline themselves on a course of study, but then I’m not a big fan of bashing on people that can’t at least fight back, and I haven’t seen very many Game Wardens of scientists participating on this forum, have you?



>>Why would a Game Warden participate on this board - they "don't like herpers" remember? Also, I have never heard a herper bash scientists - in fact most every herper I personally know *LOVES* scientists and science! First of all, hello *herpetology*, then there's biology, ecology, geology, biochem, paleontology, etc. etc.



>>And are you implying that herpers are non-educated, undisciplined hicks? Many of us have degrees - many of us even have *science* degrees, SO WHAT?! So where do *your* prejudices lie?



Of course, all these loudmouths do is give the rest of ‘us’ herpers a bad name, because this cowboy attitude is all people outside the herp community see other than the whacko that kept a 10ft alligator in his bathtub and claimed to be a serous conservationist. I wonder why I suggested that herp clubs put together responsible pet ownership fairs as a way to improve our public image? Yep, I get bashed at work for keeping herps and associating with loudmouthed herpers in any way, and when I defend the position of the herp hobbyist, I get nailed to the cross and set on fire for defending the whacko smugglers, so you’ll forgive me if I get a little angry when I get bashed by the very people I get bashed for trying to protect at work!



>>See, that's EXACTLY the problem - YOU are being pre-judged NEGATIVELY by *WILDLIFE OFFICIALS* even though YOU are *one of the "GOOD GUYS"* and *ONE of THEM!!!! Even though they PERSONALLY KNOW YOU!!! Don't you see a problem with that? I wonder how many other "good citizen herpers" they have either wrongly judged, accused, or whatever. It's pure prejudice. That's all. Don't judge all herpers by the whackos, "cowboys",or the criminals! What's so difficult about that?



>>The legal system says innocent until proven guilty - but law enforcement (Game, fish, whatever) seems to think guilty until proven innocent.



If I was on this forum to try and shut down the wild collection, and captive breeding of herps, why would I say I captively breed herps, and why would I state that some people do have some valid reasons for collecting wild herps?



>>You did say just that - you only changed your tune to make allowances for wc herps in response to the points I brought up.



It is up to you to decide if I have any valid points in the opinions, perspective and facts that I write about. If you think I am completely full of bovine hay residue, fine, ignore me or disagree with me, but I have just as much right to post my opinions as the mysterious M5. I wonder, did you spend as much time reading and evaluating all of M5’s posts as you did mine?



>>I choose to evaluate what and who I want, for my own reasons. Just as you do. My last post was intended to be a friendly "don't sweat it, this is why they are questioning you..." type of post. It certainly didn't require this type of response. I can totally understand having a thin skin due to the constant questioning.... but now you are alienating even those people who at least partly agree with you!



perhaps I just scare you more because deep down you know I am right about the bleak future of our hobby if we don’t clean-up our act.



>>You don't scare me - you have no idea what it takes to scare me.



>>I don't believe the herp hobby's future is *bleak*. I don't have to clean up *my* act - there's nothing to clean up. There are issues and concerns that must be addressed by the hobby as a whole, and a minority of herpers have to be dealt with to clean the tarnish off of the rest of us, true. We need to band together to prevent stupid legislation, and promote positive legislation. We need to get more species to successfully reproduce generation to generation within the hobby - then we can honestly consider ending wild collection. *Bleak* indicates to me - "give up, we've already lost". I don't believe that's the case here. We do have to fight for our "rights" to keep and breed our favorite animals.



>>You have exhausted my patience with this discussion. I tried to be civil throughout. You do have valid points, but by playing devil's advocate too well, I think you have successfully alienated even those you were seeking to ally yourself with. And that's truly unfortunate.



>>Lisa McCune

[ Show Entire Thread ]