Posted by:
BigBrother
at Sat Feb 28 02:38:41 2004 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by BigBrother ]
Lisa,
I am sorry that I have apparently angered you with my response to your post. I merely went through the issues you brought up and responded to them in turn, and I never disrespected you or your views, and that was not my intent! All I intended to do was explain my perspective on the issues that you brought up, but it seems you have taken that as a personal attack, and that was not what I intended to do, so I am sorry. I would like the opportunity to answer a couple of your question because I think they are good ones, and they get right to the heart of what I have been trying to do on this forum.
You Wrote:
>>>General agreement here except for this line, "Falconers have been able to gain enough credibility with the authorities, which I’m sorry to say herpers mostly lack (and we pretty much all know why)" NO, we DON'T!!! Why can't you understand this? We don't know why all herpers are vilified by the actions of a few! Are all falconer's vilified by the authorities for the actions of a few falconers that break the law (and don't tell me no falconer has ever broken the law!) If you look at ALL herpers, ie. simple pet keepers with 6 turtles, through the average herp society hobbyist with with a dozen to 50 individual animals, through the hobbyist breeders, pet stores, commercial breeders, and importers/exporters... I'll bet the number of people who actually break the law is minimal. I'd be willing to guess ten percent.
In Response:
If a falconer breaks the law, mistreats his birds or acts in an irresponsible manor, he looses his license at minimum, and thus he is no longer a falconer. If a herper breaks the law he pays a fine and/or jail time and goes back to being a herper. In the falconry community they keep each other inline so they don’t have problems with the authorities. In the herp community everyone does their own thing and pretends the actions of the other members of the community has no effect on them. A falconer keeps a bird that most people outside the world of falconry think are majestic. A herper keeps animals most people outside the herp community at minimum think are strange and many people are out right afraid of. You won’t see a red-tailed hawk sitting in it’s own filth for sale in a pet store, but you can easily find a sickly lizard sitting in it’s own filth in a pet store. I know we would like to believe people look for the good in things, but human nature dictates that most people see the problems with herps not the good things herpers do because they are exposed to more bad than good. In short, herpers like to look at the good things in the hobby and gloss over the bad things, but outside the herp community people see the bad things, and rarely if ever see the good things. My intention all the way along has been to get herpers to police their own ranks and clean up the problems that people on the outside see with our hobby before PETA and HSUS shut us down. This is a battle of public perception, and the herp community by its inaction is loosing badly!
You Wrote:
>>Why would a Game Warden participate on this board - they "don't like herpers" remember? Also, I have never heard a herper bash scientists - in fact most every herper I personally know *LOVES* scientists and science! First of all, hello *herpetology*, then there's biology, ecology, geology, biochem, paleontology, etc. etc.
In Response:
I’ve been here for just a short time and every time I put pen to paper I get bashed. The bashing I love best is when people accuse me of not looking at a problem from all perspectives when my intent is simply to present the other perspective to try and get people to find some common ground, so I am completely wrong on the issues because I present a different perspective that is totally invalid. The irony is wonderful!
As to the scientist bashing, let’s forget the rocks I’ve taken and check out the Monitor forum where Dr. Sam Sweet, who aside from being one or the world authorities on monitor lizards is also the past Editor of the Journal of Herpetology and a major figure in the field of herpetology, who put together a well thought out post about the chemistry of iron-based heat packs and how they scrub oxygen from the air, which he states could cause problems in shipping animals in closed containers. He even talks about why there probably has not been more reptile mortality associated with these heat packs (see A note about iron-based heat packs - SamSweet, Thu Feb 26 22:46:27 2004). In other words, Dr. Sweet presented a scientific solution to a potential explination to a question posed about shipping mortality. And to this effort a guy responded with sarcasm, and basically said you don’t know what your talking about because I ship animals using these heat packs all the time with no problems (see RE: A note about iron-based heat packs - JPsShadow, Thu Feb 26 23:42:22 2004), and then another guy bashes him with a lengthy post (see RE: From the, it only took a brain file - FR, Fri Feb 27 09:58:15 2004) that does everything but call Dr. Sweet a liar. And it is followed up by a guy who makes my point for me by saying “Don't open those in a small room, it may deplete the oxygen, make you retarded, and that could seriously affect your ability to get a Phd. hahahahahahaha This really is silly, heat packs are used for shipping fish, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and mammals. I do think birds and mammals need alot more oxygen than reptiles, but I don't have a Phd so you better not take my word for it. –Robert” (see Be careful Jody - RobertBushner, Fri Feb 27 13:19:34 2004). This doesn’t sound like love to me! To be fair, there were several posts supporting Dr. Sweet’s post, but they were in the minority and the same loudmouths bashed on them for suggesting he had a point. Like I said, people on this forum like to bash Game Wardens and people with degrees for some reason, so I suspect that is why there are not more members of these two groups participating on the forum, and I have never seen a post from a PETA representative on this forum. It is easy to preach to the choir, the real trick is preaching to a larger audience where the real decisions are being made, and if you want to encourage real discussion about the issues, people on this forum had better learn to try and see the problem from some of these other perspectives instead of bashing on people who do not share their views because herpers are in the minority and will loose a public debate every time with our current reputation.
You Wrote:
>>And are you implying that herpers are non-educated, undisciplined hicks? Many of us have degrees - many of us even have *science* degrees, SO WHAT?! So where do *your* prejudices lie?
In Response:
I never said anything of the sort, and in fact I have said many times that I consider myself a herper, and I have many degrees. If you actually look at the make-up of the community of herpers I think you will find that most are fairly well educated, which is why I find it so surprising that the herp community as a whole tolerates the loudmouths that bash people who are not here to defend themselves and who give the entire community a bad name!
You Wrote:
>>See, that's EXACTLY the problem - YOU are being pre-judged NEGATIVELY by *WILDLIFE OFFICIALS* even though YOU are *one of the "GOOD GUYS"* and *ONE of THEM!!!! Even though they PERSONALLY KNOW YOU!!! Don't you see a problem with that? I wonder how many other "good citizen herpers" they have either wrongly judged, accused, or whatever. It's pure prejudice. That's all. Don't judge all herpers by the whackos, "cowboys",or the criminals! What's so difficult about that?
In Response:
This is exactly my point! The public and Gov’t perception of herpers is that they are a group of loudmouthed jerks that poach, smuggle, and keep illegal animals in greater numbers than they are allowed to because that is what they see, and they also see that the HERP COMMUNITY is either UNWILLING or UNABLE to POLICE ITSELF, so they feel they have to do it for us!!! The herp community is loosing the public perception battle by its own in action. Why is that so hard to understand? The herp community is certainly willing to lump all Game Wardens into a pile of stupid, self-righteous environmentalists out to destroy all of the herp community’s fun to justify their existence, so why is it so hard to understand that they do it to us? The only difference is that we have something to loose, and they don’t! It ain’t fair, but that’s life.
You Wrote:
>>I don't believe the herp hobby's future is *bleak*. I don't have to clean up *my* act - there's nothing to clean up. There are issues and concerns that must be addressed by the hobby as a whole, and a minority of herpers have to be dealt with to clean the tarnish off of the rest of us, true. We need to band together to prevent stupid legislation, and promote positive legislation.
In Response:
In other words, you acknowledge that there are problems in the industry, but take offence at my suggesting that you have some responsibility for the actions of other herpers, and then you go on to say that herpers have to band together to prevent stupid legislation. Can’t you see the CONNECTION BTWEEN the IRRESPONSABLE HERPERS and the STUPID LEGISLATION?
So what is my motivation for participating on the forum? It is simple; I want herpers to police their own ranks for a change and stop promoting an atmosphere of brazen bravado, because the illegal and irresponsible activity coupled with this cowboy attitude is giving us all a bad name. If we don’t recognize that this is a problem and stop tolerating and even encouraging this kind of behavior within our ranks by saying, “it is a small minority that is the problem, not me” and pretending illegal activity is no big deal despite the fact that illegal activity keeps making headlines or pretending our collective pile of dung don’t stink just because not every person participated in the making of the dung, we are all going to LOOSE BIG when the Gov’t and PETA step in to clean up our mess for us! I am advocating that every member of the herp community needs to take personal responsibility for the actions of every other member of the herp community because the bad behavior of a few affects us all in the form of stupid laws, bans and restrictions. No, we can’t stop all illegal activity and irresponsibility, but we can sure let folks know that this kind of bad behavior is not going to be tolerated within our community. People who break the law or act in an irresponsible manor should be shunned from our community, not put on a pedestal and cheered as concerning heroes in the battle against ‘the man’!
You Wrote:
>>You have exhausted my patience with this discussion. I tried to be civil throughout. You do have valid points, but by playing devil's advocate too well, I think you have successfully alienated even those you were seeking to ally yourself with. And that's truly unfortunate.
In Response:
Your right, this is unfortunate because I was civil with you (I admit there have been others on the forum I have lost my temper with, but you were not one of them), and I have even told you I think you generally have very good points that I agree with in many cases, and it was never my intention to alienate you, and I am sorry if I did. However, I have not been playing devil’s advocate, I have been advocating for myself and an alternative view on the problem all herpers face in an effort to promote discussion of the problems and get folks to change the way they look at and respond to the problem. It seems from your post, and those of others that my central point has largely been lost along the way, and I don’t understand why because I have restated the same position over, and over, and over to the point where I am tired of listening to myself!
Perhaps the Gov’t types and PETA are correct in assuming herpers are unwilling or unable to see the problems, take responsibility for their community and police their own ranks? I hope not because that means I would have to give up my animals when it becomes illegal to own herps and, some of my “kids” I have kept for 30 years or more. And that’s truly unfortunate.
Big Brother
[ Hide Replies ]
- Re:Falconer's model - Thamnophile, Fri Feb 27 23:13:09 2004
 Re:Falconer's model - BigBrother, Sat Feb 28 02:38:41 2004
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