BB said:

Lisa,

I am sorry that I have apparently angered you with my response to your post.



My reply:

Anger is too strong a word - try sheer frustration.



I believe in personal accountability - a person is accountable for his/her own actions. They ARE NOT responsible for the actions of others. People should have the self respect to strive to do the "right thing". If everyone could only do this, then there might not be a problem to begin with. I generally think there should be less laws, not more. In some ways I think the "herp problem" is similar to the "gun ownership problem" in that some herps can be dangerous/deadly - but mostly when handled improperly by the wrong people AND that the issue really shouldn't be about enacting newer, stricter laws, but by making clear the existing ones and properly enforcing them.



That being said, this is a country full of frivolous laws (ie. banning ownership of snakes over 6' in length in areas where snakes that get larger are native), lawsuits, well-funded political lobbyist groups with huge agendas (ie. PETA), and goverment officials who often think they know "what's best" for others, without asking for other's opinions (ie wildlife officials on ego trips).



BB's comments:

If a falconer breaks the law, mistreats his birds or acts in an irresponsible manor, he looses his license at minimum, and thus he is no longer a falconer. If a herper breaks the law he pays a fine and/or jail time and goes back to being a herper. In the falconry community they keep each other inline so they don’t have problems with the authorities. In the herp community everyone does their own thing and pretends the actions of the other members of the community has no effect on them. A falconer keeps a bird that most people outside the world of falconry think are majestic. A herper keeps animals most people outside the herp community at minimum think are strange and many people are out right afraid of. You won’t see a red-tailed hawk sitting in it’s own filth for sale in a pet store, but you can easily find a sickly lizard sitting in it’s own filth in a pet store.



My comments:

The line about breaking the law, paying a fine and going back to being a herper - replace the word herper with ANY OTHER noun and see what you get - try these - dog or cat owner, parent, doctor, CEO of a major corporation. In some of these cases, according to existing laws, they indeed would lose their license or "rights" and would thus, no longer be a (insert noun here). But many of these laws are not enforced (Enron anyone?) If existing animal humane laws and wildlife (and habitat!) protection laws were simply ENFORCED - I believe many of the "bad things" about this hobby would be GREATLY REDUCED! Where are the laws governing how petstores must humanely sell animals and provide for their needs in dealing with the sickly reptile sitting in it's own filth? Rather than realizing that herps "matter" as much as dogs and cats when enforcing humane laws, many agendas (like PETA) would rather ban their sale, than enforce their proper care. That is not the *herper's* fault! But as a result - it's *herpers* that do have to ban together, to create proper, protective legislation (for the animals AND the hobby) and prevent or repeal bad legislation.



BB's comments:

My intention all the way along has been to get herpers to police their own ranks and clean up the problems that people on the outside see with our hobby before PETA and HSUS shut us down. This is a battle of public perception, and the herp community by its inaction is loosing badly!



My comments: Total agreement with the sentiment - it's your delivery, and the specifics that herpers have a problem with.



In Response:

I’ve been here for just a short time and every time I put pen to paper I get bashed. The bashing I love best is when people accuse me of not looking at a problem from all perspectives when my intent is simply to present the other perspective to try and get people to find some common ground, so I am completely wrong on the issues because I present a different perspective that is totally invalid. The irony is wonderful!

As to the scientist bashing, let’s forget the rocks I’ve taken and check out the Monitor forum where .snip.... Dr. Sweet presented a scientific solution to a potential explination to a question posed about shipping mortality. And to this effort a guy responded with sarcasm, and basically ..snip....bashes him with a lengthy post ... This doesn’t sound like love to me! To be fair, there were several posts supporting Dr. Sweet’s post, but they were in the minority and the same loudmouths bashed on them for suggesting he had a point.



My comments:

You said it yourself - loudmouths! A post might be read by 100 people 75 of whom think, "Wow! Glad he posted that, I'll have to watch how I use those, or stop using them altogether." Three might post to say so. Of the 25 who thought, "I disagree, I use 'em all the time, with no problems." It's the 5 with the strongest, most outraged disagreement who are going to post, "That guy's crazy!" I've seen it over and over again on many boards, and do it myself - this conversation's an example. You don't neccesarily respond to a post you agree with, but you most certainly respond to a post you strongly disagree with. It's human nature.



In reference to the "preaching to the choir" comments..Kingsnake is a herp hobbyist's website. Unless a member of wildlife LE, or PETA (fat chance!) is a herper - why would they be here? Find herpers an open forum where we can talk to WLE and PETA and the gov't about these issues, and we probably will.



I Wrote:

>>And are you implying that herpers are non-educated, undisciplined hicks?



BB's Response:

I never said anything of the sort



BB said:

I don’t understand why so many people find scientists, who are frankly smart enough to have figured out a way to get paid to do what they love, to be worthy of being bashed as morons who need to be spoon fed reality by people who followed a different path in life and did not discipline themselves on a course of study,



My reply:

The implication appeared to be that herpers "frankly *AREN'T* smart enough..." and "did not discipline themselves on a course of study" But I could have misinterpreted.



I Wrote:

>>I wonder how many other "good citizen herpers" they have either wrongly judged, accused, or whatever. It's pure prejudice. That's all. Don't judge all herpers by the whackos, "cowboys",or the criminals! What's so difficult about that?



BB's Response:

This is exactly my point! The public and Gov’t perception of herpers is that they are a group of loudmouthed jerks that poach, smuggle, and keep illegal animals in greater numbers than they are allowed to because that is what they see,



My reply:

No, it's not your point - what you have been saying all along was that the public, gov't, and PETA are right - and that herpers need to police ourselves "clean up our act" before our right to keep herps is taken away, and we collect wc herps into extinction.



What I'm saying is that what the public, and gov't believe is mostly misperception and fear/loathing of herps in general, fueled by soundbytes from PETA, and media sensationalizing the cases of herp abuse/neglect, salmonella,etc. etc. What I believe is that we need to EDUCATE everyone about herps/herpers, create those beneficial laws I already mentioned, and work to eliminate that "10 percent" of "bad" herpers.



BB wrote:

and they also see that the HERP COMMUNITY is either UNWILLING or UNABLE to POLICE ITSELF, so they feel they have to do it for us!!!



My comments:

How many other animal related hobbys police themselves? Cats, dogs, rabbits, ferrets, pocket pets, tropical or marine fish, horses, cows, sheep/goats, llamas/alpacas, birds? Not to my knowledge. Falconry - how do they police themselves - does the licensing come from a national falconry organization - or does the license come from the gov't? If it's from the gov't, then they don't police themselves either.



BB wrote:

In other words, you acknowledge that there are problems in the industry, but take offence at my suggesting that you have some responsibility for the actions of other herpers, and then you go on to say that herpers have to band together to prevent stupid legislation. Can’t you see the CONNECTION BTWEEN the IRRESPONSABLE HERPERS and the STUPID LEGISLATION?



My response: I absolutely do - but it is not the herp hobby's fault as a whole (or mine!), it is the fault of those individual herpers that didn't take responsibility for their own actions. And those special interests who take advantage of "bad press" to create anti-herp legislation. Unfortunately, as a result, the hobby does have to band together to defend itself. If animals, habitat, and the herp hobby benefit from herper's coming together, then justice will be served. That's how I look at it.



I pointed out to you why people were questioning your motives, and you responded by getting hot under the collar. So I replied in kind. It's too bad it came to that.



Lisa

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