Lisa,



I think you hit the nail on the head, if everyone did the “right thing” we would have no need of laws in society, but laws in society are needed to establish the “boundaries” within which a free society can operate. The real question is where does society draw the boundary line. Your gun example is a good one where there is a great deal of debate about where the “gun control” line gets drawn. In some states it is legal for persons to carry a concealed gun without a license, whereas in other states carrying a concealed gun requires a license. Further, there is the whole national assault rifle ban extension that folks in DC are voting on today. These are contentious issues that deal with where the line is drawn, and when news events occur, like some nut case opening fire with an assault riffle on a schoolyard for example, political pressure is applied due to the public outcry. Many years ago, in response to such an event, the National Riffle Association set up a demonstration of the proper use of an assault riffle at one of the local shooting ranges a couple of days after the killing spree. Instead of using regular targets for their demonstration, they used watermelons! Can you imagine how parents of children felt about this demonstration going on at the same time as the funerals for the slain children? I honestly think the NRA meant well, but their timing and choice of targets did not play well with the general public, so the gun control folks gained a lot of ground on the NRA that day with out even trying, because the NRA responded inappropriately to the public’s concerns, and the public responded by badgering the politicians into enacting tighter gun controls even though the guy who did the killing was not suppose to be allowed to have a gun in the first place (as I recall the guy was a convicted felon with a history of mental instability which should have prevented him from being sold or even in the possession of a gun). Clearly this is a case where if the original laws were enforced, this tragedy would have never occurred.



Now back to herps. We are also dealing with a “where to draw the line” debate much like gun control, but with herps, the debate is multi-factorial whereas the gun control debate is largely dichotomous (i.e. right to bear arms vs. keeping guns out of the reach of criminals that will use them to do harm to society). With the herp “control” issue we are dealing with the right of a person to keep a pet they enjoy, the prevention of animal cruelty due to improper care etc., the safety of the public due to irresponsible owners keeping dangerous animals (which is largely a public perception issue in and of itself, but I think we can all agree that keeping an 8 foot alligator in an apartment is not safe and neither is keeping a boomslang in a shoe box), the protection of wildlife from over collecting (which has been and still is a problem for many species, and I would argue will be a bigger problem in the future as human populations increase resulting in the loss of habitat for wild populations, but that is a different debate), and the protection of wildlife from the effects of introduced competitors/diseases from captive exotic animals. To further complicate things we have commercial vs. sport harvest issues that come into the mix to blur the line placement as well as the exotic/native/domestic species protection issues to deal with. In other words, the location as to where the lines are drawn that infringe on individual rights is not a simple two dimensional system, so there are a lot of issues that need to be discussed to find the balance between all of these competing factors.



Herpers tend to have strong views as to where those lines should be drawn on this multidimensional field, and what I have been trying to illustrate, is that where these lines get drawn is largely not up to herpers, it is up to the general public, because herpers are in the minority. The public does not understand all of these competing issues revolving around the keeping of herps any better than the politicians, whom the public drives into enacting laws to restrict the personal freedoms of herpers. If six little old ladies call up a politician and tell him that unless he protects them from these “irresponsible snake people” they won’t vote for him at re-election time, a politician looks at his voter base and decides that he can look like a big man to his voting constituents buy passing a law that restricts the freedoms of a minority group, and even though he might loose votes from this minority group, the majority of people will either think the law is a good idea or not care about it, so the politician does the only thing he knows how to do, and that’s adding laws to the books so he looks like he is doing something good for the “public good and safety” with out really improving anything. The result are a bunch of stupid laws restricting herps that are based on “News Events” such as the ubiquitous alligator in the basement or apartment next door or the guy that gets bit by his pet (insert name of venomous snake here), or the guy that walks around the streets of a city with a 15 foot python draped around his neck scarring the bagezes out of some little old lady. All of these incidents upset the general public, and when people get upset they call their local politician and demand that something be done to protect them from these irresponsible people that are a member of the minority community of herpers. So, at least at the local level, which is where most of the herp prohibition laws are enacted, the system is driven largely by the public’s fear of reptiles, and the irresponsible owners feed those fears. To make the problem worse, no one (the politician being first among them) bothers to determine how to fairly enforce the laws or even pay for the enforcement of these new “public outcry” laws, so they sit on the books to restrict the “good citizen” herpers while the irresponsible ones, who were responsible for the restrictions in the first place, continue to ignore and violate the law, which just makes the community of herpers look worse in the eyes of the general public. Similar arguments could be made for all the other factors I have listed as a result of poaching, commercial over-collection, and etc.. The point is, it is the minority of herpers, who are irresponsible, that are driving the public’s perception that these laws are needed, so we need to attack the problem at it’s route to protect the community as a whole, and not ignore the problem because no one else is going to solve the problem for us. Just look at what happened after a handful of kids in a nursery school got sick after putting dime store turtles in their mouths! No one stopped to ask what sort of conditions the teachers were keeping the turtles in, which was probably a pool of very gross water that had not been changed in weeks, before they enacted a National law banning the sale of turtles smaller than 3”, and there were many local laws banning turtles and in some cases reptiles from schools completely. Did any politician, or the general public for that matter, stop to think about how enacting such a law would impact the rights of herpers? Or did they stop to consider what impact such a law might have on wild populations when no one could afford to CB turtles as a result of this law? Of course not, which is why the minority herp community needs to take action to change the public’s perception of our community to reduce the number of stupid laws being added to the books.



The best way to change our public image is for each and every herper to “do the right thing.” The problem lies in the irresponsible herpers who will never change no matter what we do, and there will always be bad apples in every group. We can respond by saying these people are the exception not the rule because most herpers are responsible owners, which will wind up as the obligatory “we asked for comment from the herp community, and they denied that this was a real problem” line in the news story that makes the front page of the local news paper with a headline reading “Reptile Hobbyist Keeps Pet Alligator: Bites Leg Off Postal Worker.” Or we can respond preemptively by working on our public image and making it clear that irresponsible owners will be shunned from our community, and the best way to send that message is to make it crystal clear that irresponsible behavior will not be tolerated within the community. The recent posts about poor conditions in pet stores are a good example here. Most folks have suggested ways to quietly get the pet store to clean up its act. I would argue that maybe we should gather together a group of herpers with signs like “Responsible Herper Against Inhumane Treatment of Animals at Store X” and stage a very loud protest outside the offending pet store. In other words make our position crystal clear to the public that this kind of activity is not going to be tolerated within the herp community. Wouldn’t it be nice to see a headline like “Reptile Hobbyist’s Promote Humane Treatment of Animals” for a change? Talk about taking the wind out of PETA’s sails!



You also make a very good point that there are a lot of stupid and not so stupid laws out there that are not enforced. For the most part these laws are not enforced because they are either truly stupid laws or because of the practical realities of trying to enforce laws that are poorly designed. This is why I think wildlife laws need to be made by biologists and law enforcement personnel in concert, not individually, and certainly not by politicians with no understanding of the issues. Most importantly, the good laws in place need to be strictly enforced, which will only be the case if the herp community gets involved in the enforcement process. This does not mean you have to squeal on your friend, but it does mean that you need to tell your friend that what they are doing is illegal and has the potential to negatively impact your ability to keep herps, and you don’t ever want to see X again. All of the sudden it will no longer be cool for someone to thumb their nose at the law within the herp community. Further, money is found to enforce laws when the Gov’t is told the public wants certain laws enforced, so herp groups need to try and work with (and I know this is not always easy, but we still need to work toward this goal) not against law enforcement agencies and lobby for the money necessary to train Game Warden’s on herp identification for example, or get your herp club together, do a bake sale and donate the proceeds to pay for a Warden to drive the favorite night driving road once a month looking for poachers. All of these things will go a long way toward improving our public image as well as our image in the eyes of most LE people. There are many other way to improve our image as well, but the point here is that we must improve our image, to get what we want because we are in the minority, and it is in our own best interest to improve our public image. We have nothing to loose by trying to change our image, and everything to gain, and that is what I mean when I say we need to clean up our act.



My final comment is in response to, “In reference to the "preaching to the choir" comments..Kingsnake is a herp hobbyist's website. Unless a member of wildlife LE, or PETA (fat chance!) is a herper - why would they be here? Find herpers an open forum where we can talk to WLE and PETA and the gov't about these issues, and we probably will.” PETA has already made up their mind and they are not going to change, so don’t bother! PETA already knows the only way to win their argument is in the public arena where the issues are uncomplicated and vague. The trick is to make the public see that we, the minority herpers, are reasonable people and will respond in a reasonable manor to public concerns and that we do hold people accountable for the mistreatment and poaching of animals. If we do that, PETA will become obsolete, but our silence gives them power because it makes us look like we have something to hide. I am a member of wildlife LE, and I am here because I am a herper who sees the need for change within our community. Most wildlife LE types are not herpers, but most are hunters and fishermen who got into their career to try and protect something that they themselves love to do. It is not their job to come to us in the herp community and try and build relationships with us; it is up to us to build relationships with them. After all, we are the ones who have something to loose. If you go to almost any hunting or fishing club across the country you will find wildlife LE amongst their members because they feel welcome. How welcome do you think most wildlife LE people would feel at a meeting of your local herp club? There is a reason for that, and it is directly tied to everything we have been talking about. If a guy in a hunting club talks about poaching a deer, his buddies will jump on him like a ton of bricks! However, I cannot even count the number of times I’ve been to herp club meetings (and no, the members at these meetings did not know who I was) and heard people talking about how dealer x has a shipment of X species in that is suppose to illegal, so you better buy one while they last (and there was a recent post to that effect in one of the other forums), or I’ve got x species even though it is illegal under local law but the law is stupid cause this guy is great, or Game Wardens are such morons they can’t tell a rat snake from a kingsnake. It all comes down to taking personal responsibility AND letting others know that bad behavior will not be tolerated because it affects the entire community badly. Finally, such a change would go a long way toward fostering communication and respect between LE and the herp community, which is the first steep toward solving differences.



Just one persons opinion, take it as you see fit.



Big Brother

[ Show Entire Thread ]