Herps are illegal to keep in Norway and people get caught annually. Up to 1000 herps are put to sleep annually beacuse of our legislation.

The Norwegian herpetological association is attempting to lift this ban. We are concerned about annd the animals beeing but to death and people being criminalised for pursuing their hobby.



Since it is of legilatative importance I'd like to open a thread on the definitions of wome words.



What is the definition of "game"?

What is the definition of "wild animals"?

Are captive bred herps (for example crested gecko or corn snake) concidered as "game" or "wild animals"?



What is the definition of a "pet"?

What is the definition of a "domesticated animal"?



People in norway that are caught with herps in Norway are charged eigther by the law that forbids exotic animals or the "game-law".



When I was caught, I was charged by the "game-law" for keeping captive bred geckoes.



Here's a comment I got from the HerpNet forum to get you started if you wish to aprticipate in this thread.



Best regards

obeligz



-----------------------------------------



New studies in Rapid Genetic Change maybe well explaining why zoos have a

difficult time with long term reproduction of animals and limited success in

using zoo animals for restocking outside of the F1 level. The new methods of

study and research, if and when it is used may well show us that the methods we

use to keep animals including proactive efforts to maintain healthy animals

through various prophylactic methods may well change the animal rapidly, first

through DNA changes within the initial animals, even before reproduction and the

genetic change going to the offspring.



Those of us who have worked with wild herpes in monitoring studies know that

most species just picked up weighing and measuring and released even for a few

moments show movements for up to weeks that does not fit behavior before the

intrusion. If the animal is out of the habitat for some time, normal behavior

may never be shown while in others, they eventually reestablish themselves

(minority) in the wild.



These are just two examples of just how herptiles become "domesticated" quiet

rapidly.



Add this to the efforts to customize animals to the market through selective

breeding and you have indeed created domestic animals. Man has been doing

this for a long time. The longer we work at it, the more domesticated the

"species in captivity" are while the species (by biological definition) is still

wild in nature.



We are trying to find out how to have populations of herps (tortoises) in

captivity (semi) without causing the domestication factor to happen. Without

understanding how to do this, the concept that zoos (or private collections) are

conservation tools may be a great overstatement that is good for fundraising

but in reality a joke.



Domestication has done a great deed for conservation. First husbandry has

grown to be a respectable form of agriculture ( Herpetoculture) now has a seat on

the Ag Board in Florida.

The ability to provide the volumes of herps needed to feed the gigantic

interest and desire to have a herp pet has kept people out of the field searching

for herps to meet this need. Oh there are still market hunters out there but

they can be controlled through proper legislation (which does not include

disallowing species in collections that could be DOMESTICATED). Most of the time

they are out there collecting things that are not being bred in captivity and

are not easily available to the buying public. A perfect example is the Indigo

Snake. These snakes can be bred in captivity, just as ratsnakes and many boas

are today. But, because it is illegal, the black market is doing just fine.

In Florida, the FWC has not enough staff or the interest to keep up with the

people who go to the areas where this species is common to catch them not just

for the black market but for their private collections. Meanwhile this

federally "protected" snake is allowed to be destroyed right along with its habitat

as the countryside is being developed. What is wrong with this picture?



Regards, Ray Ashton

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