Posted by:
rtdunham
at Fri Nov 5 11:20:42 2004 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by rtdunham ]
It appears the melanin has been reduced to 5% if that or it is all eliminated and we are seeing what it looks like with the absence of it.
Adam, I think you're addressing here what i was trying to say (but perhaps i didn't say it as effectively as you did) about putting melanin in hypos & amels on a 0 to 10 scale: A dark example of the old type hypo has melanin reduced to maybe 90% of what a normal hondo has; good examples of the old hypos still have what, 70%? But now we're seeing lighter hypos--the lightest, we're calling extremes--that have the melanin reduced to maybe 20 to 40% of the amoutn a dark hypo has. And this animal, upon personal inspection and, imho, in the pix, shows it still has a slight amount, the 5% you suggest doesn't sound unreasonable, i'd say 5% to 10%.
(Disclaimer: as noted, the skin might thicken and that slight gray color might turn out to be internal organs, capillary blood, etc., and when the skin's thicker the snake might turn out to be snow white, 0% in those rings, which would make it an amel. But based on the many amels i've seen, i doubt that's the case)
Terry do you have pics of your Extremes when they were close to this age to compare?
sorry, i don't, not that focus on the eyes. (remember too i only owned 2 of my 4 extremes when they were hatchings)
Could it be a Double mutation?
well, the parentage has the potential of producing double mutations. but look at the post i responded to one or two posts higher in this thread, about that issue.
I think you're on the right track with the 5% idea. There are two possibilities:
1) a single genetic hypo morph could throw babies with varying degrees of melanin reduction. All the hypos we're seeing, including even this radically different one, if that's what it is, COULD be variants of the single hypo morph we've had for years.
--this could be based on the individual diffs among ALL hondos--we know some have more red pigment, others are oranger, some have more or less yellow in the narrow rings, some gain yellow over time, others get a lot of black tipping and added melanin as they age, etc., all this is within the normal range of hondos, no special recessive morphs. so the diff we see in hypos COULD be due simply to natural variation in the normal type animals from which the hypos derive.
OR
2) the existing single morph could be modified by the effects of combinations of other genes--bright yellow narrow rings, the ones in the middle of each triad, have not been demonstrated to be a recessive trait, but you probably could line breed to get animals that produced that color pretty consistently...in effect you'd be selecting for a bunch of genes that in combination achieve that affect. That COULD be happening with the ever-lighter hypos we're seeing.
OR
3) we could see multiple hypo morphs, with differing effects--just as there are two or three types of amelanistic california king snakes, with slightly different looks, there could be two (or more) genetically distinct recessive hypo morphs (i'd propose the old one, in this case, might be referred to as "Love" hypos, after their founders, and the new lighter ones as "Falcon" hypos, or more descriptive terms such as "hypo" and, to distinguish the lighter ones, "extreme" hypos)
--i'm told there are examples of genetically and visually distinct hypo morphs in red rats? (and there appears to be this situation with pyros, with the Barczyk and Sentz hypo lines looking very different, but more breeding's necessary before that can be absolutely concluded, imho)
--diff hypo morphs, non-compatible ones, could appear, and maybe one would have the effect of "lightening" or of reducing melanin an average of 25% on the scale we're discussing (maybe the original type hypos would range from 50% to 90% of the melanin a normal has, for ex.) and a diff mutation, the extreme, hypotehtically in this case, might reduce melanin to a greater degree, producing babies with 5% to 45% of the melanin a normal has.
NOTE that in this third possible explanation--that there are two diff and incompatible morphs-- case there are a couple of interesting/challenging consequences:
a) at the "best" end of one type of hypo (remember i'm talking about IF there are genetically incompatible (different allele) hypo morphs) it might be hard or impossible to visually distinguish an animal from a "worst" example at the other extreme of a different morph. So ID could get complicated.
b) IF there are two diff morphs, it already IS complicated, because the "extremes" have come out of mike falcon's line of "regular" hypos so the extremes would be potentially het or homozygous for that morph as well.
c) IF there are two diff morphs that opens the door to creation (which might have already occurred) of DOUBLE-mutations of the two hypo morphs. Theoretically, if one morph reduces melanin 20%, and the other reduces melanin 60%, a double mutation hypo, one that is homozygous for both, would show the combined effects of both rerductions, and thus would have melanin reduced by 80%, for example.
(i originally went into another theory here, but decided this was already long enough--ok, too long!) i pulled that theory and started a new thread, see the thread above titled "a theory on hypo hondo variability"
I don't think there's any test breeding that's gonna quickly resolve these issues, but can anybody suggest paths of inquiry?
other thoughts?
terry
[ Hide Replies ]
- What is it? beautiful hondo jeff a produced - rtdunham, Fri Nov 5 00:22:20 2004
- a few more pix - rtdunham, Fri Nov 5 00:25:11 2004
- Crazy.. - jeph, Fri Nov 5 01:07:10 2004
- RE: Crazy.. - theselectserpent, Sat Nov 6 17:23:33 2004
- INSANE! - bluerosy, Fri Nov 5 08:30:07 2004
- RE: What is it? beautiful hondo jeff a produced - ZFelicien, Fri Nov 5 08:36:59 2004
- Beautiful Hondo - - Adam Willich, Fri Nov 5 09:52:17 2004
- eyes pic... - pweaver, Fri Nov 5 10:22:55 2004
 RE: Beautiful Hondo - - rtdunham, Fri Nov 5 11:20:42 2004
- Skin observation... - MarcB, Fri Nov 5 11:27:56 2004
- AWESOME is what it is!! Here's my theory... - Shane Kinney, Fri Nov 5 13:41:51 2004
- Terry,I still say its a extreme hybino?Makes since to me and when - shannon brown, Sat Nov 6 02:52:48 2004
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