Valid points! Many keepers have little knowledge of physiology, biology and chemistry (most just like monitors because they are interesting/fascinating). What many who do not understand and should understand is that the amounts of glycogen, glucose, and to a greater degree vitamins and minerals that can be extracted differ with prey items. A couple of examples of this are the much higher Vitamin D3 levels in fish/ diurnal basking lizards and higher calcium levels in crustaceans. Yes, you are correct that monitors have a great ability to extract what they need out of the items that they come across, similar to snakes and crocodilians in that respect, but we need to try to do better for those monitors kept in captivity than provide the minimum.



This thread started well enough, but seems to be turning in circles. Thank you for the scratching your head comment; it made me think about it again and see we that it has been going back and forth for no reason because there is agreement: whole prey items not from a single item is best. The crocodile analogy did not support either point of view at all; it was just to show that a terrible diet can also achieve results and in that example, outstanding results, but one could argue that properly fed crocodilians would produce better results; however that is not cost effective. The crocodile analogy did well to advance your argument.



Off the topic of monitors, I agree on the comments about the tortoises. Many things are to be considered, researched and analyzed when formulating a diet for such specialized feeders (what they get from their specialized diet vs. content of the replacement diet), especially when most of the tried and true plant matter is not available (in tropical climates) for a pseudo-diet . Admittedly, because of those reasons you stated, a good tortoise diet is far more complicated than a Varanus diet. I had a most difficult time finding out what the local plants here contained nutritionally for my different Geochelone sp.



To Frank: Snakes to monitors was a retort to your comparisons, I just took it further with the comparison of crocodilians and monitors, which did nothing to advance either of our points, only to show a terrible diet showing results and “life events.” I am happy to report that the crocodiles here are fed better than just chicken necks and heads. I spent much time at an alligator farm near where I grew up and investigation of the local crocodile farming on my part was not in relation to monitors, but the plight of Crocodylus siamensis, which is close to extinction in favor of its hybrid C. siamensis X porosus. There will be a most difficult time trying to convince the government of a reintroduction program in their favor, even though there had never been a documented attack when they were in the wild!



I have mentioned many times that you should have your results published. Bear in mind that without this you are doing yourself a disservice (credibility) and a disservice to those that are keeping monitors as well as the monitors being kept in captivity. It would serve as an important document for people to consider when they raise the subject of breeding themselves. Remember that publication means editorial review. There will be those that agree and those that disagree. Anyone can post what success they have on the internet and I am not questioning your success, but without publication, it is as though it never happened or existed. Publications avail the information for everyone forever, unlike the internet, where the threads of this forum will disappear in a couple of months time.



Concerning publications, yes, the level of understanding and methods are constantly changing. Please consider this in your personal editorial review of publications. With this in mind, a publication’s validity does not always stand the test of time because of this change, whether they are taxonomic in nature or revelations of new practices or methods. To do this would be to discredit the greats that laid the foundation for our understanding of monitors. It is because of this foundation we have come this far in the knowledge of Varanus, not in spite of it.



As for Sam Sweet, he has published his findings. They are well supported and his research has a solid foundation. As you said, monitors are not numbers and anyone who has kept monitors knows every monitor is an individual: with different behavior, likes, dislikes, compatibility and non-compatibility issues. I could hardly call the analyzing and computation of hard data (real events) as theory, if you are referring to theory as speculation.



To my future breeding of Clouded Monitors, I will let you and others know the results. No foreseeable problems, they have the “home field advantage” here. All of their environmental factors are naturally provided for, no compatibility issues and a sound diet.



Your comment: “Now heres the point, I never said, mice alone are perfect or best, or never did I recomend them to others as a sole diet. If you and others would bother to read my post, I said I recoment whole prey items.” – 100% agreement and have agreed through the entire thread!



I am not quite as stubborn as this thread and the other thread might suggest. I received an outstanding tip for my V. dumerilii that I have implemented in the short time that I have been looking at forums and have also received great information that I used for the care of my Geochelone sp. I am sure we will find more agreement in the future.



I think that we can ALL concur that the most important factor is the use of fresh whole prey diets for our monitors that does not come from a single source (my apologies to the canned monitor food industry). Can we end this thread on that note?



Cheers,



Michael

[ Show Entire Thread ]