Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We have had tough discussion here about crossbreeding, true locality specific boas and colour- and pattern morphs.

The hardliners of the morph fraction stated that if one buys a boa then he/she can do with it what he/she wants because there is no law that forbids the crossbreeding of true boas with morphs.

The hardliners of the locality fraction states that morphs and crossbreeds should actually not exist.

I think most of the boa enthusiasts of both fractions here came to the agreement that both kinds of boas have their place in the boa community but one should not breed true boas to morphs.

I believe that when very rare boas are involved almost all people can agree to this. And I think that most boa enthusiasts with a sound mind would agree that locality boas that are almost extinct should not be used for breeding to morphs in order to create a better colour or a different pattern whatsoever.

This was the introduction. And now to the facts:

Fact #1:
A couple of Boa c. sabogae had been smuggled from the Pearl Islands to Costa Rica several years ago.

Fact #2:
The female gave birth to a litter of healthy babies this year (when I recall correctly it had been 16 babies).

Fact #3:
All babies had been sold to a breeder in Arizona/USA.

Fact #4:
I got this information from the person who was involved in the export formalities or rather who lend his name in order to do the export since the breeder has not the necessary status to make the export by himself.

These were the facts. And now some reflections (that could be wrong):

1.
The breeder in Costa Rica knew pretty well that he has dug up a treasure with this litter. Therefore the boas most certainly have cost an arm and a leg. Also, it requires very good contacts to learn about these boas.
So it is safe to assume that only one of the major breeders in Arizona is having the money and the contacts to get hold of these boas. And now let us take a look at the list of the major breeders in Arizona….

2.
Most of the major breeders in the U.S. (and in Arizona) earn their living by breeding colour- and pattern morphs. Creating new morphs brings major money. Or will this breeder mutate from Saulus to Paulus and become a locality breeder? I doubt it…

3.
Normally the ways a new morph is created are clandestine. A lot of rumours are spreading in such cases and articles are published as to the way such an animal evolved. These articles may be true or the content just a plain lie. Nobody knows. If so, this will not work in this case. By chance the matter came to be known and I will watch very carefully what will happen to these boas and find out who has got them.

4.
None of my business you may say? Wrong! It’s the business of all of us. Everybody who gets animals that are poised on the brink of extinction has lost the moral right to use them for increasing the appearance of his morphs. It’s the business of all of us because it is our inheritance. We have a right on these boas!

5.
I just visited the website of the most well-known breeder in Arizona. The animal on the top corner left looks like a litter mate of one of my boa c. sabogae. Where did he get this photo? Is it one of his animals? Is it from Costa Rica? Or should I be mistaken?

If it is from Costa Rica, he should consider his responsibility to the nature and future generations and refrain from producing another superfluous mutt at the expenses of an almost extinct commonly acknowledged boa c. subspecies.

If he intents to keep and breed these boas pure I wish him all the best straight from my heart and I gladly offer an exchange of babies in the future in order to avoid inbreeding.

So far I have no proof as to who in Arizona bought these animals. Just hints… But there is no harm in watching closely what will show up in the future in certain facilities.
salmon boa???

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

no text

For comparison

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

So you are thinking that King Tut and Cleopatra were murdered by asps.It is not a Costa Rica connection though,but a Babylonian connection.The old Steve Martin lyric hook-"Born in Arizona,moved to Babylonia."

Many think King Tut was murdered,but the Arizona asp connection was never really brought up...now it is coming together...see lyric link.
Born in Arizona

Herman,
Let's say you are 100% correct. Why would you post all this and NOT put the individuals name. You left some clues on your post as to who you think it is that has done this and I have found a page or two that strikes my interest regarding this. On the other hand, looking at this snake (if it is indeed the one that you say is in Arizona), it makes me think of someone else and some offspring they produced at a time in the past.
Whether you like true redtails or you like color morphs, I honestly am missing the point behind this OTHER THAN just another way to show you disagree. Am I correct in assuming this?
I have lots of questions regarding this, but I am not sure where to begin. I guess I will just see where this goes from here.
Brian Oakley
Phx, AZ

... that so far such projects came to be known when it was too late. When the harm was already done.

Now there is a chance to make the new owner of the animals think about what he can do (or should not do).

The animals are surely in the hands of an experienced breeder. He can do a lot of good now with them, or waste them.

And if the animals will be wasted, I will denounce it.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Hermann,
. It is cowardly of you to make these unprovable insinuations. We do not have to be rocket scientists to figure out who you are talking about. The person you are making this cowardly attack against is highly respected in the Boa community. Rather than injuring his reputation you are just further damaging your own. I think you should either come out and say what you have to say or ask the moderator to pull this entire silly thread. Either say what you have to say or leave it alone. Some of the things that you state as facts are unsubstantiated rumors rather than facts. Many of the details of your post sound like a case in which some charges were filed against several people including someone in Arizona in the herp business several years ago. If this is the case you are talking about it is all ancient history and you have most of the facts wrong.
Jeff

>>We have had tough discussion here about crossbreeding, true locality specific boas and colour- and pattern morphs.
>>
>>The hardliners of the morph fraction stated that if one buys a boa then he/she can do with it what he/she wants because there is no law that forbids the crossbreeding of true boas with morphs.
>>
>>The hardliners of the locality fraction states that morphs and crossbreeds should actually not exist.
>>
>>I think most of the boa enthusiasts of both fractions here came to the agreement that both kinds of boas have their place in the boa community but one should not breed true boas to morphs.
>>
>>I believe that when very rare boas are involved almost all people can agree to this. And I think that most boa enthusiasts with a sound mind would agree that locality boas that are almost extinct should not be used for breeding to morphs in order to create a better colour or a different pattern whatsoever.
>>
>>This was the introduction. And now to the facts:
>>
>>Fact #1:
>>A couple of Boa c. sabogae had been smuggled from the Pearl Islands to Costa Rica several years ago.
>>
>>Fact #2:
>>The female gave birth to a litter of healthy babies this year (when I recall correctly it had been 16 babies).
>>
>>Fact #3:
>>All babies had been sold to a breeder in Arizona/USA.
>>
>>Fact #4:
>>I got this information from the person who was involved in the export formalities or rather who lend his name in order to do the export since the breeder has not the necessary status to make the export by himself.
>>
>>
>>These were the facts. And now some reflections (that could be wrong):
>>
>>1.
>>The breeder in Costa Rica knew pretty well that he has dug up a treasure with this litter. Therefore the boas most certainly have cost an arm and a leg. Also, it requires very good contacts to learn about these boas.
>>So it is safe to assume that only one of the major breeders in Arizona is having the money and the contacts to get hold of these boas. And now let us take a look at the list of the major breeders in Arizona….
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>2.
>>Most of the major breeders in the U.S. (and in Arizona) earn their living by breeding colour- and pattern morphs. Creating new morphs brings major money. Or will this breeder mutate from Saulus to Paulus and become a locality breeder? I doubt it…
>>
>>3.
>>Normally the ways a new morph is created are clandestine. A lot of rumours are spreading in such cases and articles are published as to the way such an animal evolved. These articles may be true or the content just a plain lie. Nobody knows. If so, this will not work in this case. By chance the matter came to be known and I will watch very carefully what will happen to these boas and find out who has got them.
>>
>>4.
>>None of my business you may say? Wrong! It’s the business of all of us. Everybody who gets animals that are poised on the brink of extinction has lost the moral right to use them for increasing the appearance of his morphs. It’s the business of all of us because it is our inheritance. We have a right on these boas!
>>
>>5.
>>I just visited the website of the most well-known breeder in Arizona. The animal on the top corner left looks like a litter mate of one of my boa c. sabogae. Where did he get this photo? Is it one of his animals? Is it from Costa Rica? Or should I be mistaken?
>>
>>If it is from Costa Rica, he should consider his responsibility to the nature and future generations and refrain from producing another superfluous mutt at the expenses of an almost extinct commonly acknowledged boa c. subspecies.
>>
>>If he intents to keep and breed these boas pure I wish him all the best straight from my heart and I gladly offer an exchange of babies in the future in order to avoid inbreeding.
>>
>>So far I have no proof as to who in Arizona bought these animals. Just hints… But there is no harm in watching closely what will show up in the future in certain facilities.
>>salmon boa???
>>
>>-----
>>Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Fact #1:
A couple of Boa c. sabogae had been smuggled from the Pearl Islands to Costa Rica several years ago.

Fact #4:
I got this information from the person who was involved in the export formalities or rather who lend his name in order to do the export since the breeder has not the necessary status to make the export by himself.

In regard of your FACTS, you claimed that you got the information from the person who was involved in the export. Thus, the best information you can get is that all babies had been sold to a breeder in Arizona/USA. How could he know if a couple of Boa C. Sabogae had been smuggled from Pearl Island to Costa Rica several years ago, and if they are indeed Sabogae(he's not the one who smuggled the pair)? How could he know if the babies born from the mother indeed pure Boa C. Sabogae, but not crossed with locality boa in Costa Rica (he's not the breeder of those babies, especially he's not Hermann Stoeckl who had the gift of telling locality by just looking at the boa)?

1. The breeder in Costa Rica knew pretty well that he has dug up a treasure with this litter. Therefore the boas most certainly have cost an arm and a leg. Also, it requires very good contacts to learn about these boas.
So it is safe to assume that only one of the major breeders in Arizona is having the money and the contacts to get hold of these boas. And now let us take a look at the list of the major breeders in Arizona….

So far I have no proof as to who in Arizona bought these animals. Just hints… But there is no harm in watching closely what will show up in the future in certain facilities.

In regard of the REFLECTION, you said that it costs arm and leg to get those boa. What make you thing that "the breeder" will use them to create a new morph, when in the past, you claimed that Hypo/Salmon was crossbred between Imperator and Sabogae? Assume "the breeder" use those to enhance the Hypo/Salmon line, would it be wiser for "the breeder" to breed these pure Sabogae, since "the breeder" can make more money with a rare specie than the existing Salmon? You said that articles may be true or plain lie, while you have no proof, just hint, and start jumping on here and make an issue out of it. What's the reason behind it? Are you afraid that "the breeder" will produce Boa C. Sabogae and put you out of the U.S. market? The problem with you is you just have FACT from second or third person, rumor, gossip, assumption, etc... Are you really wish him all the best straight from heart, and gladly offer an exchange of babies in the future in order to avoid inbreeding? Or you just want to work with him in order to improve your B.S. stock ("the breeder" had 16 babies, while you just have 1 or 2 pairs)?

Also, do you understand when I mean HARD WORK now? You see, you could not buy those 16 babies while "the breeder" could. He had the money that you don't - money earn from HARD WORK. Your saying of keeping boa is not HARD WORK is plainly B.S., because without HARD WORK, you don't even have a boa to keep. And if you want to work something out with "the breeder", this is not a correct way to work out with someone. You can't just bash someone with second-person facts, rumors, b.s., and think of exchanging babies with him in the future.

Since you keep claiming that Salmon is crossbreed between Imperator and Sabogae, why don't you crossbreed your Sabogae with Imperator to find out if half of the litter have Sabogae looking. It's a stupid, crazy idea you may say, but at least you will have some fact to show us, who are "blind", instead of go hear and yelling "I heard this and I heard that..."

...cause locality-breeders wouldn't go on "niveau stupido" ;-/

N/P

If I am clueless, then please enlighten me.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

1) You have no clue if there is indeed a pair of pure sabogae smuggled in to Costa Rica several years ago. You claimed it as your fact #1, which you heard it from a secondary source (not from the breeder, or the smuggler.)
2) You have no clue if the babies produced indeed are pure sabogae. You claimed it as your fact #2, which also obtained through a secondary source.
3) You have no clue who were these babies sold to - Your fact #3
4) Worst of all, you have no clue if your source indeed legit. Come on! He's involved in export the babies, and he has no clue who was the one he export those babies to - He didn't just ship them to Casper-The Friendly White Ghost in Arizona, did he? Just one simple thing that he involved, and he couldn't provide you with a name, how good are the rest of his sources that you claimed as your fact?
5) You have no clue what "the breeder" is going to do, thus, you come here and try to find out.
6) You have no clue about HARD WORK.

Your intention through out this post is try to find out who has the babies, and what is (s)he going to do with them not because you concern about the babies. Your concern is if (s)he is going to introduce sabogae into the market, which will beat you to the punch of getting into the U.S. market. You can deny it as much as you want, but that's the truth you want to be the first one who has the credit on the Sabogae. Now you realize it's not easy, isn't it?

YOU DUNNO!

Meanwhile I have got more information from a source in the U.S.
Unfortunately this source don't want to be disclosed due to reasons that I can understand perfectly.

So let us do it the simple way: Just ask a few questions.

1.
Rich Ihle and Brandon Weik, is it true that you are partners on this?

2.
What are your intentions on these animals? Will you keep them pure or will you use them to enhance your salmon boas or whatsoever?

Of course you are legally not obliged to answer these questions but in my opinion if one acquires animals that are almost extinct he has the moral obligation to be answerable to the boa community.

This was the questions to Rich Ihle and Brandon Weik.

And now a question to you all:

Don't you really give a damn when these animals are used for producing more morphs? Is this the case?

If so, then you don't need to be surprised that many people all over the world are watching the U.S. with growing uneasiness.

Locality breeders like Gus Rentfro and others are excepted from this statement. What a shame that they don't have got the animals!
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

For what its worth, Hermann, I do understand your point and share your concerns.
The owners can certainly do what they want with the snakes but i think it would reflect on a breeders integrity if they didn't disclose the true provenance of their animals.
I was absolutely mesmerized by some of Gus Rentfro's stock at Daytona this year. High quality locality Boas offer a wonderful look at the potential of the natural world. I'm sold on the locality route. Others are free to follow their own path - just be honest with your customers.

(You are such a little drama queen! *LOL*) Why would anyone other than a devout locality breeder,go through any major trouble,(or,pay any major amount of cash)to get these animals that you suposedly know so much about? to add wild blood into a genetic mutation that has already evolved light years ahead of the founding stock???,(which,I personally believe,came from the Central American mainland,near Pananma,as did the first Pearl Island boas.)??? to add "fresh" blood to the project???PLEASE as a "morph breeder"it's easy to see we don't need them! they would serve no purpose...can you begin to comprehend that? there is NO NEED to revisit "square one" by going backwards...to further refine,enhance,or,strengthen the "hypos",one simply has to breed one to ANY unrelated B.c.i.,and,you have created a completely new filial generation of gene carriers,which can then be bred to ANY one of the thousands of individual gene carrying animals currently in existence,in captivity that are already far superior to any illegally obtained F1,or,wild caught Sabogae!!!!anyone with even moderate intelligence could understand this quite clearly!!!(so I would expect you to have trouble with it!*lol*) Locality breeders would be the only group that could place much value on obtaining such animals...I don't know Rich,or,Brandon very well,but,I'd be very surprized if either one would give you $20 ea. for these animals you claim exist...I know I wouldn't??? they're basiclly worth zitch,to an accomplished morph breeder,in my opinion Inspector Clusoe...

According to the law the import and the acquisition of these animals is lawful, although it leaves a bad taste.

I never stated anything else.

The aquisition of the parents had been illegal, but that's not the problem of the buyers of the F1 - generation of these animals. To be honest, I would have bought them also because it's a legal transaction (I also would have accepted the bad taste *LOL)

As to the intentions of the buyers we have to wait. It will surely turn out eventually.

A quotation from an email that I have got:

"The truth, though, is that I'm certain you are right. We'll suddenly see a sharp change in the coloring of the Ihle and Weik "Super Salmon Boas"

The bad thing is that it is hard for me to imagine that one of the most wellknown breeders of morphs will keep these animals pure. Or should I be mistaken?
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

No one needs these animals to "improve" upon something that is already far superior to F1 Sabogae! the genetic link to the appearence that we call "hypo" can be found in mainland Panama,(as well as other Central American countries.)and,regardless of the primary origin,we are well over ten years into their refinement...so why in the world would you think anyone other than a "pure locality breeder" would be interested in obtaining them,leagally,or,otherwise???!!!

Quit quoting from some imaginary email messages you've supposedly received! do you think that this adds some sort of legitimate proof,or,evidence? you do this every single time you come here with one of your "revelations",and,Anna Nicloe Smith is NOT a legitimate source of information on these subjects!(and,NO! neither are Ozzy Osborne's children,they said don't even go there! they will deny having ever spoken to you!)

By this I mean a locale of boa should be recognised if it truly has distinguishing morphological or behavioural differences, not by the man-made boundry (country) it came from or island. I'll leave the classifications to the scientists and researchers rather than the dealers and breeders (this is not a jab at dealers and breeders), but I feel someone who is not profiting from it will be more likely give accurate and un-biased data. It's hard to agree with one or the other when the boundries are so inaccurate and superficial.

Cheers

IF the information concerning the Pearl Island boas are correct in this case, then the person who has them in their possession would be doing a MAJOR disservice to the entire boa community now, and in the future, by not keeping them pure. An animal such as the Pearl Island boa is not only magnificent, but also extremely rare and one should not purchase one (or more) without the specific intent of keeping them absolutely pure AND by doing everything in their power to make sure that they (or their progeny) end up in the hands of someone with the same intentions.
I personally see it as a moral issue.... but I would hope that the person in possession of this gem would, at a minimum, see it as an obligation to future generations of boa lovers.
Jonathan Brady

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Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

.

Jonathan,
. I agree with you 100% about keeping rare snake bloodlines pure. However, I think Hermann's postings here on the subject do more harm than good. We will not convince anyone of the importance of keeping bloodlines pure by spreading unsubstantiated rumors about respected people. Rather than writing his post here Herrmann should have written to Rich and asked him about the snakes and encouraged him to keep the bloodline pure or sell them to someone else who will. BTW, if the snakes actually came to someone in Arizona via a clandestine export from Pearl Island and then through a breeding project in another country I would question whether anyone can be certain about how pure they really are. There are too many uncertain links in the chain of custody.
Jeff

>>IF the information concerning the Pearl Island boas are correct in this case, then the person who has them in their possession would be doing a MAJOR disservice to the entire boa community now, and in the future, by not keeping them pure. An animal such as the Pearl Island boa is not only magnificent, but also extremely rare and one should not purchase one (or more) without the specific intent of keeping them absolutely pure AND by doing everything in their power to make sure that they (or their progeny) end up in the hands of someone with the same intentions.
>>I personally see it as a moral issue.... but I would hope that the person in possession of this gem would, at a minimum, see it as an obligation to future generations of boa lovers.
>>Jonathan Brady

Perhaps its time to hear your side. There are a lot of people rising to your defense but we haven't heard from either of you. I think most people on this forum would be willing to accept your statement that Hermann is wrong. An experienced defense attorney will quickly tell you that, at times, a lack of denial gets interpreted as conplicity.

Laughing their a$$es off,to respond to Inspector Clusoe's accusations...It's kind of like asking the President to drop what he's doing,to respond to the National Enquirer!*LOL* sometimes a response can fuel such an inquisition,by lending a false sense of legitimacy to something that really isn't even worth considering? (I just like to highlight the Inspectors brain flatulance! )

But I am afraid there will be no statement. They can't afford to deny because the truth would turn out eventually.

Again, there is nothing illegal in this purchase, but I just wanted to alert the boa community that true locality specific boas that are almost extinct are maybe in danger to be used for a morph - project.

I would gladly hear a statement that these animals will be kept pure.

There are breeders who have morphs AND locality boas. And they strictly separate their projects (for instance Vin Russo or the Barkers). So I think this would be a good idea.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Why??? Does it really matter whether they do/do not have these animals? I know Rich & Brandon personally and could care less IF they have these animals and care EVEN LESS than before what they would do with them IF they indeed have them. We are talking of two well respected breeders, in AZ and in the country. The salmon/hypo lines are already established (regardless of their background), whoever has these animals is most likely going to re-establish a dying (and not even a true subspecies) of boa.

Definatley not attacking you, in any way, just wanted to throw, my $0.02 in here.

Chris
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There are no STUPID QUESTIONS just STUPID PEOPLE.....quoted by the common sense committee

???
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Sabogae was designated as a subspecies without any concrete evidence that it's anything more than a locale of imperator. Also, while your digging your nose in everyones sh!t, research why that little Bci you so dearly love appears to have inbreeding syndrome.
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There are no STUPID QUESTIONS just STUPID PEOPLE.....quoted by the common sense committee

I do not have any information regarding these snakes so I will not presume or preach my opinions on this.

But I do have a question. Why is it so important to keep a pair of boas from an already near extinct (as you have, and several other have stated) pure? if this is the one of the last remaining pairs available after a few generations will they still be an accurate representation? as we all know 99% of all locality keepers and breeders keep only the nicest looking animals for breeding stock and ignore the true representation of the animal. Also how can a pure locality breeder even say they are Locality specific anyway? Ask most of them and they will admit what they keep and breed do not represent even a small fraction of the wild population, in any way other then the blood line. Wouldn't it be a more accurate representation of a locale if the breeder purchased a large wc group from one specific area (as in a 50 acre plot of land) and then keep them all together to allow something of an accurate "natural order" to allow for atleast an attempt at keeping the locality specific animals to be able to interbreed and keep from making "extreme widow peaked" "high purple" "low speckled" "striped" animals.

Okay I know I did let a little of my opinion bleed through, but it is nearly impossible not too.

Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

... would be the best of all possibilities to preserve these animals. But a little bit difficult to practice.

What many of the locality breeders do is the best that is practicable.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Well if that is too difficult to practice by the average Locale keeper then perhaps they should stop breeding them all together. If they do not have the ability to accurately represent the animals they are trying to work with why do they have any more right to "selectively breed" them, then the morphers to responsibly breed the morphs they love and cherish?

Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

local breeders think that they make good work,also powered with feedback from all over the world...so,why should they give the best animals in other hands than their own??

Just out of interest what if the owners of these animals bred the females only with males from the litter and bred males both with the females and with other morphs. Say for example there were 10.6 animals in the litter. Would you object to them using the 4 males that wouldn't have a female partner in other projects; and,if so, how would this differ from the separate projects that people like the Barkers and Vin Russo do?
Bill Kirby

There are only a few of these animals left. All of them should be used to preserve this subspecies.

Furthermore it is often necessary to use several males for a female. If there is a surplus in females then they can be bred every other year in order to have some gravid females every year.

On top of that I would never use a true locality specific boa for a morph project. You may smile at this but it's a question of ethics in my eyes.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

On top of that I would never use a true locality specific boa for a morph project. You may smile at this but it's a question of ethics in my eyes.

What happen when you used the daughters of a stripe, junglelish looking Suriname to produce stripe, junglelish looking offsprings???

we are not bored...

They do look VERY simalar. I would say that although it seems you dont have anything concrete I would like to hear their viewpoint on it. I agree that it would be IMO a huge disgrace to infuse this into some kind of morph project.
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"Victory is reserved for those willing to pay its price"