Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It amazes me that this "debate", for lack of better words, still goes on. There are SO MANY animals in our everyday lives that are crosses of other breeds (for lack of better terms). Look at dogs. Some of the most popular dogs are crosses.
Rotweiller (excuse the spelling) are crosses of a Doberman and a Mastiff. Done years ago and now a VERY popular dog in MANY households. There are still pedegrees on these dogs as a seperate species (rather sub-species).
Pit bulls are crosses of a terrier (forget the type) and a american bulldog, same end result as above.
Pameranians are a cross of a husky and soemthing else, I appologize, I forget what teh cross was YEARS ago. The list goes on and on. Do you see or hear dog lovers complaining that other people have "mutts" or "morphs" or whatever you want to call them.
Look at corns. If it were not for breeding different color morphs together we would not have what is currently available. With our breeding a Emory and a albino corn, we would not have creamsicles. Where are all the corn "purists". They do not exist. The same people that have color phases of corns breed (and keep pure) the true locals also.
This CAN be done with boas as well (as some have noted in the past). This ongoing, chest pumping, ego driven debate is senseless and really has no benefits to anyone. Nobody's words or opinions are going to change what people think so why go on and on trying to change the world. I have said this before, we all know how other people feel about the subject. We have all been here long enough (most of us anyway) to recognize opinions and place them with names. Although I do not post on here nearly as much as I used to, this debate, argument, whatever you want to call it was going on 5 years ago on this very forum.
I have said this before and I will say it again. Love the species for the love of the species. Do not love the species to use against another person and what they do with it.
Someone said that they are trying to preserve the natural characteristics of the true local boas. That is all fine and dandy, but show me aplace where you can re-introduce a goup of boas that have been subject to years and years of human controlled habitats (PETS). Will not happen.
Someone mentioned that they do not selectively breed their true local boas. I say horse $h!t to that as well. Unless you take ALL your boas, put them in one large area and let those that breed do so with which ever boa THEY want, you are selectively breeding. YOU are the one that took female number one and place it with a male, for whatever reason, you chose the male that you did. You may not call it selective breeding, but even though you may say you did not consciously choose that boa, it was still done for a reason.
Move past it people, life goes on and so does the breeding of such named "crosses" of boas. I still debate that this DOES happen in the wild.
Anyone see the Jeff Corwin show on the Galapagos (probably mis-spelled that one too) where they have proof that the marine iguana bred with the land version of the similar species. Iguanas that live seperated only by water rushing up on the shore. Was on just a couple of weeks ago. Granted, he said they do not have the ability to reproduce, but maybe that brings an interesting point to boas. Maybe boas are stronger in sense that they can AND DO reproduce if crossed with other sub species. What about rattlesnakes in Arizona the breed amoungst different subspecies. Same with Gophers in Arizona. There are the sonoran and the great basins that cross breed. Just a thought.
These animals are only seperated in our minds by immaginary borders placed, or won, by man. These animals cross paths all the time. you think they know that the border of their "local" is only 100 yards away, therefore stop and do not explore further? I think not.
Anyway, just something to think about. I look forward to the responses.
Brian Oakley

PS. Please excuse all gramatical and spelling errors for our English gurus that lurk here.

I have been trying not to say anything about it lately. Like you said, I won't change anyone's opinion with mine. The Argentine crosses really tick me off but ultimately my [bleep]ing will do nothing constructive. I will try to breed pure Argentines myself for future generations and that's about all I can really do.
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JMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

I compliment you for keeping your breedings pure.
It is good to have people that stick to the actual locale, this way they are always available for those who want them.
This is the reason this whole debate blows me away. I have said this before as well, you will NEVER get rid of the true locale boas as long as there are people like yourself breeding them. I know that there will always be a good number of people that breed local specific boas to each other, even if it is at the same time they do crosses with others in their collection.
Brian Oakley

the scarcity of some of the animals, and
the difficulty involved in reproduction.

Corn snakes and dogs are easily reproduced. Something else I just thought of, the number of people who like dogs is MUCH higher than the number of people who like reptiles, or even snakes, or even BOAS. So when one person refuses to separate a valid sub-species b/c they wish to make a morph out of it and cash in, then it pisses off quite a few of the people (and perhaps the only people) who are interested in keeping that sub-species separated from the rest of the muddied and dead gene pool.
personally... i stopped caring what people do w/ their "pet store" boas a while ago. but when it comes to limited populations of certain boas (bco's, bca's, island bci's, etc..), i think that ownership should be limited to those that are dedicated to the purity of the species.
just my thoughts....
jb
jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

You are correct, dogs and corns are easier to breed.
I agree that TRUELY limited (in numbers) snakes should be bred amoungst their own species, but even if someone chooses to corss tham, that does not mean they cannot do both.
I persoanlly do not even look at it as "cashing in". If anyone has speant more money with little return on snakes it would be me. Yes, I have bred snakes, but I chose to buy things that are appealing to my eye. Humans like to push the envelope so to speak. See what else can be done. WIth that said, along with what I said above, BOTH can be done with this "new" hypo boa. Breed it to only it's own type for a couple of years, then take a male or two and breed them into something different. "Exploration" can be very exciting and that is what I am looking at. Not just the financial return.
WIth all that said, there are a few crosses out there that I do not agree with. Maybe not for the same reasons as others, but to varying degrees I do not approve.
Who knows what will be next, corns are changing every year. Agree or disagree is not even important, the fact that you or I will not set anyone on doing one particular thing is a fact.
Brian Oakley

you are correct, the number of people that like dogs is MUCH greater than those that like snakes. On the other hand, how many people put a snake up for sale and NEVER have the chance to sell it. There is a buyer for everything. That is my point in these crosses. SOmeone will always buy the "next" or "new" thing out there. Someone is always willing to see what else can be done, regardless of the fact of other people liking their choices. I do not buy crosses (at least have not yet, can't say I never will), but on the other hand, seeing what new look is produced I DO find exciting.
Brian Oakley

Jonathan, I think I see your point, but you people always say people do it just to Cash in. I wouldn't think so. Some are trying to get better looks. I wouldn't say breeding a Regular Columbian to a Surinam would make a More profitable breeding. I know what you mean though. I do think it is great to have people breeding locality specific boas. Just because some breed them to other species, doesn't mean they are ruined for life. You can still breed that same Parent to the SAME species the next year or after. I can see the point with threated species, but usually those aren't in the hands of breeders becuase they are supposed to be PROTECTED. Yes all the gov't are screwed up when it comes to this, and if there was a Species that is really endangered, then I think those who are lucky enough to get them for the Reason of "saving" a species or Subspecies should do that. However, the Mainstream herp lover and breeder isn't just that. Most breeders are hobbiest and are breeding for better looking snakes PERIOD. To own, and YES sell on other occasions. I think that honesty is the best policy. Sure some won't be honest and sell snakes that aren't pure, but my point is that when you breed in Private (outside of the wild) you aren't doing what those boas were going to do in the wild anyway. Also, just because one litter is crossed out doesn't mean the parents are still pure and can make pure babies too. In the case of Saving Sub Species I really see the point, but 99 percent of this is just Hobbiests. Be honest in what you do and sell them. Buyers should seek those who are reputable and back up what they sell. In a perfect world, things would be different. I appreciate your point of view. I am just giving a little different side. Take Care, Jeremy

Also, to Brian, GREAT POST!!!! I AGREE!!!!

good thoughts.

Sorry for the mistake!

I understand the hunt for the next big look but why not take both paths? If the purchasers have 16 of these rare gems, it would be unconscionable not to breed some true locale animals. Besides, if the salmon morph is truly so far advanced, locale breeding may be the more profitable route.
Why throw away the gene pool for this rare and beautiful locale?
I'm glad to see there are other people of like mind.

the "horse has left the building","Elvis is out of the bag",and the "cat has escaped the barn" many years ago.

Many people out there do not have what they think they have,but might love to tell you that you shouldn't have what they think you might have,even if it isn't(or is) what they think it is or isn't.

As a wise philosopher by the name of Steven Stills once wrote,"Love the one you're with".