Reptile & Amphibian Forums

?

This isn't meant to be negative, just wondering.

there are BCC's in south Colombia as well as BCI's in the north parts

I disagree
Have you done scale counts on your Col. boas? I have. And they have all keyed out to be Bcc.
However, many people have bred their Col boas with C. American Bci so captive "Colombian" boas may not key out to be Bcc...but I can tell you the imports will.
Mr. Ronne is on the money. It is time we corrected this age old herp mistake and start calling the boas from Colombia Boa constrictor constictor...because that is what they are.

...unless you have exact collecting data for that particular animal. The *number one* most important information that is absolutely imperative before *even considering* scale counts, is exact locality data. Not the country of origin, not the area of the country, the exporter's address, the airport, or the local pet store where the snake was sold. Virtually no collectors in the USA or Europe possess that sort of precise information.

Scale counts that collectors & breeders use today are based on captive snakes with no data, and on old publications from 50 to over a hundred years ago (that was gleaned from a very few specimens here and there). They are not accurate nor reliable for assigning a snake of unknown origin to subspecific level. No systematist will commit to a subspecific identification of any snake based solely on scale counts unacompanied by exact collection data.

"Common" or "Colombian" boas are Boa constrictor imperator. "Redtail" boas are Boa constrictor constrictor. Jeff Ronne likes to call his Colombian common boas B.c. constrictor, but with all due respect to Jeff, that designation is incorrect.

...following a long discussion on the phone last night on this very topic... Cheers, Terry Vandeventer

With all due respect do you know that Jeff didn't directly import his animals from say Mile Tsalikis in Leticia in the eigthies? There ARE people out there who have excellent locality Bcc's. HAve a look at the Ectothermics site for example.

Morning!

I knew and did a lot of business with Trudy Jerkins and Mike Tsalikis of the Tarpon Zoo Importers. Their snakes came from wide ranging areas into a couple of central compounds, where they were sorted and held for shipment to Florida. They were able to give me only widely generalized localities for their reptiles. They did not know exactly where any one individual snake was taken. They were housed in huge groups. "Commons" in their own pens and "B.c. "rubicauda" in the others.

The point is, that very few boas have precise collection data. How many American herpers actually captured the boas they own? You simply cannot take the word of the dealer in South America. He is not the collector. He's the middle-man.

At my old extinct, outdated, not-for-general-use website, Arco Iris Herpetoculture, you will see photos of true Colombian specimens of Boa constrictor constrictor. They were personally captured by Bill Lamar in Amazonian Colombia. The date accompanying them is: "Colombia; Meta Province; village of Loma Linda." The Colombian boas that Jeff Ronne has always shown in his tapes, publications, etc., are just that. They are "common" Colombian B.c. imperator. He has bred for beautiful colors and designs and many are very "redtailish" looking, but he claims that he has never cossed them with "true redtails. I have no reason to doubt him.

As far as scale counts, I've covered that in my post above. We're seeing the same stuff going on among the Rainbow Boa people and the invalid subspecies "gaigei." A form based solely on scale counts, to which more recent work has shown those numbers to be useless. Cheers, Terry

Seems we agree here. Have a look at my other post and look at some photos I took in the Colombian Amazon (I did research there for four years). Some people were lucky enough to get some locality specific animals, but the lengths they've gone to get them may be considered extreme (or perhaps illegal in some cases!?). But there are definately some out there. I know some of Mike's old collectors and there must have been some stunning animals traded in the past.

Terry,
. I know this discussion of Epicrates cenchria gaigei is straying away from the original Bci versus Bcc discussion here. Who's work are you referring to when you say that scale counts are useless in identifying gaigei? I know you have collected in Peru but AFAIK there is noone doing scientific work to prove or with a goal to publish anything different than the originally published descriptions of the two subspecies. Until there is published and accepted redefination of the subspecies then the original descriptions are the only recognized authoritative taxonomic work on the subject. It does seem that there is a clinal variation in scale counts. Because of this there is no defined line on the map to seperate the ranges of Epicrates cenchria cenchria from Epicrates cenchria gaigei. Someone needs to be doing this work. There is loads of visible difference between a Epicrates cenchria gaigei with 42 scale rows at midbody and a Epicrates cenchria canchria with 46 or more scale rows at midbody.
Jeff

>>Morning!
>>
>>I knew and did a lot of business with Trudy Jerkins and Mike Tsalikis of the Tarpon Zoo Importers. Their snakes came from wide ranging areas into a couple of central compounds, where they were sorted and held for shipment to Florida. They were able to give me only widely generalized localities for their reptiles. They did not know exactly where any one individual snake was taken. They were housed in huge groups. "Commons" in their own pens and "B.c. "rubicauda" in the others.
>>
>>The point is, that very few boas have precise collection data. How many American herpers actually captured the boas they own? You simply cannot take the word of the dealer in South America. He is not the collector. He's the middle-man.
>>
>>At my old extinct, outdated, not-for-general-use website, Arco Iris Herpetoculture, you will see photos of true Colombian specimens of Boa constrictor constrictor. They were personally captured by Bill Lamar in Amazonian Colombia. The date accompanying them is: "Colombia; Meta Province; village of Loma Linda." The Colombian boas that Jeff Ronne has always shown in his tapes, publications, etc., are just that. They are "common" Colombian B.c. imperator. He has bred for beautiful colors and designs and many are very "redtailish" looking, but he claims that he has never cossed them with "true redtails. I have no reason to doubt him.
>>
>>As far as scale counts, I've covered that in my post above. We're seeing the same stuff going on among the Rainbow Boa people and the invalid subspecies "gaigei." A form based solely on scale counts, to which more recent work has shown those numbers to be useless. Cheers, Terry

TV
While true we may not have exact locality data of animals shipped out of Colombia the same could be said for boas shipped out of Suriname, Guyana etc yet you and others will still refer to those animals as Bcc. How do you know the animals shipped out of Suriname are Bcc without exact locality data? If you apply your rule of "locality first" to animals from Colombia then you must apply it to boas everywhere.
That facts are that at this time boa taxonomist have only one scientifically valid system to work with...the system of scale counts and the original description of Boa constrictor constrictor. At this point in time that original description of Bcc is the ONLY work that has any scientific weight. Your or my opinion on the matter is worthless until we or some other taxonomist adds to this work. And according to that original work all boas that have been shipped out of Colombia have proven to fall under that original description of Bcc. Without exact locality data scale counts are the only scientific method of determination that can be applied. Whether or not that original description (or even the method of scale counts) is flawed or not again is meaningless until it is re-worked.
The fact that several thousand boas have been shipped out of Colombia and to my knowledge have all keyed out to fit into the original description of Bcc should hold some scientific weight simply due to the sheer numbers.
At this point in time any good taxonomist MUST place the Colombia boas under Bcc simply because they fall under the original work of Bcc. Any other method or opinions hold no scientific value.

.. if you mean to say that scale counts are of little help in determining locality within a subspecific population you are right .

But anyone saying (and meaning to say) that scale counts are meaningless is lacking in any appreciation of taxonomy in the Boa, or in the reptiles as a whole.. Since this I know is not true of you, I'm assuming you are either jerking our chain or on some new substance..

Have a super day..
-----
Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Gus,

Yes, I'm saying that when a person has a snake in their hands here in the USA, and they don't know *exactly* where it (or its ancestors)was collected, you can't count its scales and designate its geographic origin. Color, head-shape, body cross- section shape, pattern, and a number of other characters (including scale counts) can give the experienced boa officianado some idea of the snake's general origins. But not with the accuracy needed to include that specimen in a scientific data-base. Merely an educated guess of where it may, or even probably came from.

Scale counts among pet store variety common "Colombian" boas often fall into the range of snakes coming out of other far away regions. And obviously, researchers would never include meristic data from animals which lack collection information. Otherwise we would have the largest data-base outside of the Amazon Basin, right here in the USA! Scale counts are indeed, extremely important, especially in conjunction with other morphologics. The are, however, useless without the proper prerequisite information.

I don't believe Boa constrictor (constrictor) has an accurate type-locality. Linnaeus in 1758 has it as "India". Later Laurenti makes it "Madagascar,Java" and America." My history of the modern colinization of South America by Europeans is a bit rusty, but I would guess the first specimens (which would include the holotype) probably came from northern or eastern South America. That is, the range from which we get the "true" redtail boas or Boa constrictor constrictor.

Gus, this its the first time you and I have dissagreed on anything in nearly 25 years! Is this the end of a beautiful relationship? Or did we really dissagree? Your best buddy, Terry

.. why don't you try referencing current authorities.. Are you saying those sources are your best info? Heck, the scientific community was certain the world was flat at one point (about the same time as those reports you cite on Boa.)

You wrote SCALE COUNTS ARE MEANINGLESS and that is PATENTLY FALSE. If you want to step back from or further qualify that ridiculous comment go ahead, if not, well, you look silly..

I don't think we are disagreeing on the point of the discussiion. I'm saying (and you seem to be trying to say) that scale counts can't be used to determine locality of origin in Boa sp.. The point here is this; there is insufficient (verifiable) data both from the field and about the true origins of captive populations to make any judgement on locality of origin simply from scale counts. But counts aren't meaningless and they do give info, if not exact info. I invite you to go count some scales on all the CA boas you have and compare them with the counts on your Surinames, if you cannot find any difference check your methodology or start a new collection if you are in the locality boa hobby..

And though I'm certainly not arguing with an old buddy like you I want also to point out that your comments about no-one really knowing where their captive boas originated is outlandish, insupportable and insulting to very many people who take locality breeding seriously. That statement of yours would be the kind of thing someone would write in this forum to start an argument.

Be safe!
-----
Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

... the colombian boa c. constrictor look like peruvians.
But to the best of my knowledge these animals are hardly kept in captivity.

Herpconsultants2 may have valid informations on this topic because he did a lot of fieldwork in colombian.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

This animal was collected in the lower Rio Apaporis, a couple of hundred km's north of Leticia

Photo courtesy of Ian Stephan, Herpconsultants UK

Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I agree 100%,and,if the B.c.i. labeled as B.c.c. on Jeff's site,key out "constrictor,constrictor"...I'd be even more inclined to say the variences given in printed meristics data on B.c.ssp. is much less valuable,by itself,than many people would like to believe...

Oh sh*te, I have just lost all of my post!

Look, there are two forms of B.c's in Colombia. One is restricted to the Andes, the other to the Amazon / Llanos lowlands.

Look at these pictures. Do these look like imperator to you?

I would go on but I don't have time to write that whole post again! I'll maybe write some more later. Do a history search I have written about this numerous times.

different animal

that boa looks skinny

Well, as it's in the wild, photographed as I found it, it might look as fat as the obese animals so common in captivity today!

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/imperator/Kolumbien/kolumbien.htm

I'm re-writing the Colombian page for Herman. He will openly admit to you here that that particular page contains errors.

... the entire serious boa -literature worldwide states that in Colombia boa c. constrictor and boa c. imperator exists as well. As a matter of fact, they ajourn and there may be animals that can be regarded as "gradiation".

I have several colombian boas in my collection and I will be damned if I am not be able to discern a boa c. imperator when I see one. And these animals are imperators in my eyes.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

What is a imperator? What makes the Colombian boa an imperator? Please answer this.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=174484,174484