Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What would you get if you breed a sharp sunglow to a kahl coral albino? Are the bloodlines compatable, or will it just make het's?
Thanks in advance for all your replies.

Not compatible , please don't even try it !!

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

I'd never do that breeding either.....

Still, sometimes I wonder what a homozygous Sharp/Kahl Albino would look like.

I wonder if it would make a new "looking" morph. Maybe it would be an Albino boa with more of a "lavender" look to it.

As much as I'd like to know what one would look like... I still think it's a very bad idea to cross the two.

The only reason I can think that you would be against this is if you've completed this breeding yourself and had a bad outcome.

Enlighten the community please!

Guy
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Guy Scavone II
www.BoaGallery.com

Crossing the Kahl Gene with the Sharp gene would cause
nothing but trouble for those two Albino lines
It would make a mess !

As much as I too have wondered what results would look like

I agree with every person who's ever argued against
the pairing of the 2 lines
it would be trouble !

You don't agree with this Guy ?

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

No, I don't. I don't agree because I haven't seen the fruits of the effort. For all we know it could create an entirely new morph? I know people have done the Kahl X Sharp breeding, but I don't know of anyone taking it all the way out to trying for the 1/16 animal.

I'm not sure it's going to be anything discernable from either the standard Kahl or Sharp albinos, but the point for me at least is that I'm "not sure". Isn't that the fun in this?!

Guy
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Guy Scavone II
www.BoaGallery.com

As I said I'd like to see that end result as well.
I'm just not willing to produce the what some
200 potential offspring.
I've seen Dave Collings Math on this subject
Alot of unknown baby boas to deal with

Then keep every baby so as not to pollute
the field with DH - Sharp / Kahl Boas etc... etc....

I would hope no one would open this can of worms !

Just about every seasoned Boa collector I know of
agrees with this point of view.

It seems like a matter of ethics if you will.

Sometimes you just have to do what's right
for every bodies sake

That's my opinion though you
are welcome to your own opinion !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Like Lar and others alluded to, the end result may very well be really cool but at what cost? To get there you would likely produce dozens of animals with unknown genetics, Kahl and/or Sharp and maybe het for the other or even both.

The worst case scenario is two "Sharp" strain animals (het x het or het x visual) that were unknown het Kahls were bred. Some of those "Sharp" albino's could actually be Kahls but would incorrectly be sold as "Sharps". Or vice versa.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Your math and your logic is flawed.

Breed Sharp to Kahl to yield DH's. I'll say 25 babies... as I rarely seem to get litters larger then that and in an effort to stop the spread of genetic misfits we could use a smaller female and hope for even less. Raise them for 4 years and breed them. Hit 1/16 and see what happens.

I think we just ruined the market and muddied the waters. Rut roh.
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Guy Scavone II
www.BoaGallery.com

Hey Guy, I think you may have missed something...

"Breed Sharp to Kahl to yield DH's. I'll say 25 babies... as I rarely seem to get litters larger then that and in an effort to stop the spread of genetic misfits we could use a smaller female and hope for even less. Raise them for 4 years and breed them. Hit 1/16 and see what happens."

IMO there are two obvious possible results for the dual Kahl/Sharp baby....

You can either visually tell it apart, or you can't.

If you can tell it apart than cool, you could see it in as few as one baby, very likely in 32. Where's Paul when you need him for the actual statistics?

If you can't visually discern the dual Kahl/Sharp baby, how many babies would you have to produce to get reach a high enough probability that you have produced one and can't tell it apart from the rest of the albinos?

We've all seen the magic litters were multiple low odds babies pop out in a small litter. Conversly there are many litters where there should have been better odds but weren't

The real bottom line for me is no matter if it is obvious or not, what to do with all the rest of the babies?

For the sake of this discussion let's say the Kahl/Sharp does look different, even looks cool. Let's also assume in your breeding trals you got 32 babies and the punnet square gods were totally fair and even for you. You now have.....

2 - "super whiz bang Kahl/Sharp" babies.
12 - Albino (what strain? het for the other strain?)
18 - Normals (pos het for one or the other or both strains)

What do you do with the 30 non "super whiz bang Kahl/Sharp" babies? Maybe eventually there will be a genetics test to determine the genes in an individual animal but I can't see that being cost effective on lower value animals.

I shudder to think what those babies released into the general population could do to breeding programs.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave, its already happened. I have no doubt that over the past 5 years someone (or multiple someones) have done this breeding. I've wanted to, but have never had the right animals at the right time. So they're already out there running amuck unless they were frozen off (shudder).

I never have 30 baby litters so in the event I did the breeding I'd only have to deal with 20? And in the event I did I'd do the responsible thing and sell them as exactly what they are.

I personally think that the 1/16 double Albino will be discernable and on top of it a genetic powerhouse.

The beauty of this hobby is that everyone likes different things and ultimately has the ability to try and produce whatever it is they want. To tell/advise people that they should or shouldn't do a certain breeding because you or others feel it could cause the cataclysmic collapse of boa breeding seems silly. I do however agree that irresponsible people doing irresponsible things (selling off hets as normals, or albinos as "x" albino when it's not known) is ultimately bad for the hobby.

While we're "advising".. can people please stop breeding Bloods/Leopards into Colombian morphs?
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Guy Scavone II
www.BoaGallery.com

If you ever get around to mixing the Sharp and Kahl, Please let us know how it turns out.

To TRULY prove it's a double homozygous Sharp/Kahl albino, you need two more breeding trials. You must breed it to a Sharp albino and a Kahl albino and get 100% of the babies as albinos! Using a het won't work because the SUPPOSED double visual could be a het and you could just have really good odds.

So uhhh, who's up for the project? We're talking a couple hundred babies, maybe several hundred. No biggie! Oh, and an unfathomable amount of uncertainty with the hets and possible het by products.

C'mon... Someone...? Anyone...?

Guy, I don't think ANYONE is against seeing a double visual animal. I think the advice NOT to pursue this project stems from a place in peoples hearts where they don't wish the nightmare of uncertainty on anyone.

jb
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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

It may be possible to create a new morph from any boa breeding. I just think it makes no sense to produce animals that will have a chance to ruin someones hobby or passion by muddying up the waters, so we can prove out a small possibility. I would freezeany normal looking animals if this were attempted. Why not try a Retic to a ball ? We could call them Re-Balls. LOL

>>2 - "super whiz bang Kahl/Sharp" babies.
>>12 - Albino (what strain? het for the other strain?)
>>18 - Normals (pos het for one or the other or both strains)
>>
>>What do you do with the 30 non "super whiz bang Kahl/Sharp" babies?

I have the perfect solution, send them to me. Mmmmmmmmmm....

LMAO

I have 2 competing theories about 2x homozygous sharp/kahl albinos:
1) we've already seen it - it's the "chocolate sharp". What do you get when you mix pink and orange, you get brown! Remember, all of the females from the first sharp breeding were kept to continue the line. The first breeding was the original sharp x het kahl. Some of those females HAD to be het kahl, and so are half of their offspring, and so on. My guess is that there are a fairly decent number of het sharp and homozygous sharp animals that are also het kahl. My theory is not supported by some of the guys I've talked to, but I think it's an interesting one.
2) you'd never know it because they'd be indestinguishable from the visual form of one or the other.

Either way, to prove either theory correct would take an immense investment in caging and food, as well as time. The animals would be the smallest expense.

The above is merely my opinion.

jb
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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

"1) we've already seen it - it's the "chocolate sharp". What do you get when you mix pink and orange, you get brown!"

This is incorrect. When you mix pink and orange you get a pink/orange color. You need red/yellow/blue to make "brown". Since there's no "blue".... you can't make "brown". Not sure where the brown comes from in the Sharps, but I doubt it's from mixing the sharp and kahl strains.

"2) you'd never know it because they'd be indestinguishable from the visual form of one or the other."

I'm not sure if there would be a difference. There "might" be, but you'd have to do the breeding to find out.

The problem with doing the breeding is, you muddy the lines. You'd have boa out there carrying both strains of Albino. If someone got one as a sharp, but accidently bred it to a Kahl, you'd still get Albinos. This accidental breeding to a Kahl could result in Albino animals being mislabeled.

In the end, if you didn't get animals that clearly showed "differences".... You'd have to make the decision as to euthanize the DH's and Possible DH's for both strains or not. It would be almost "impossible" to prevent accidental breedings and mislabeling of future breedings/offspring. Unless you kept "ALL" the offspring from those breedings.

I'd still like to know what that 1/16 baby would look like, but I doubt it will ever happen.

I meant to say red, not pink. Sorry. And I think that with certain shades of red, when mixed with orange, especially a burnt orange like the sharps, you could get brown.

Also didn't know blue was necessary for brown...? Does that mean my poop contains the color blue?! Sweet!
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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

np
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-Ryan Homsey
TopNotchBoas.com Website

The reason for "brown poop"

Not sure if you actually wanted an answer, but here it is. LOL.

The color comes mainly from bilirubin, a pigment that arises from the breakdown of red blood cells in the liver and bone marrow. The actual metabolic pathway of bilirubin and its byproducts in the body is very complicated, so we will simply say that a lot of it ends up in the intestine, where it is further modified by bacterial action. But the color itself comes from iron. Iron in hemoglobin in red blood cells gives blood its red color, and iron in the waste product bilirubin gives rise to its brown color.

That actually was interesting! Leave it to me to be interested in poop!

But I'm still questioning the blue thing. In all my years, I've had many shades of color in my poop, but never blue. I've had green, yellow, orange (don't ask! Haha), but never blue!

I'm pretty sure there's some unwritten rule that states when a forum conversation turns to poop, the conversation is over, right? lol!!!

jb
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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

"I'm pretty sure there's some unwritten rule that states when a forum conversation turns to poop, the conversation is over, right? lol!!!"

That is correct. LOL

I know some tricks....but it will cost you
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

To attain a "hue of blue in your poo". Crayons come in many shades of blue, and they don't taste half bad either!

Sh@# LOL....
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

Thanks for the chuckle.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

Some time ago when I mentioned Paradox and/or Chocolate Sharp were a result of both Kahl and Sharp, I didn't get much traction.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

You beat me on the paradox thing though! Nice job!!

Oops on the double post, got a little trigger happy

jb
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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

How did someone come to the conclusion of the chocolate
being both strains and about how many choclates are out there?
I havent seen any for sale except on salmonboa

Well, it's certainly far from a fact, just a theory in my head. I explained it in another post as far as the red plus orange of the Kahl and Sharp strain (respectively) coming together in an orangey-brown color.

There aren't that many out there, which further supports the idea, IMO.

jb
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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Do you know if they were produced as sharp? Is that why they are called "chocolate sharps"?

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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Here is a Sharp Chocolate Sunglow. I have produced 3 or 4 in the last 2 years.

Have you been able to prove if its genetic? Were they produced from same pairing?

Havent proved anything yet, and I have produced chocolates from 2 different unrelated hets x my salmon line double het suglow. I think that they will probably become more like other sunglows as they grow up. Time will tell.

I want to thank all of you for your comments and opinion's, except the poop one...lol The next part to this question is, this is the female in question. I got her in trade as a sunglow, no breeder info. I looked at alot of pics on here and i come to the conclusion she is a sharp. Can you wonderfull people confirm of set me straight. Is she a Sharp or Kahl?
Thanks again.

She looks like a Kahl to me.

The Sharps that I've seen aren't as "yellow". They tend to be "brighter", and have a slightly longer more narrow head.

Of course, it used to be much easier to tell the difference between the two strains. Lately the Kahls have gotten more colorful and they hold their colors into maturity. There are also Sharps that fade as they mature. It's almost "impossible" without knowing the background of the animal to be able to say what strain it is.

Hopefully, you can figure out which strain she is. If not, I guess you'll find out when you breed her.

>> Is she a Sharp or Kahl?

Looks like a very nice colored Kahl sunglow.

Default is Kahl/original strain. Sharps were/are more pricey than Kahls and for a long time were not nearly as available (still aren't). The stuff I've seen sold that was sharp strain was clearly labeled sharp. The stuff you see where the strain is not mentioned is 99% of the time (if not 100%) going to be Kahl strain. Also quite a few sharp sunglows seem to have an orange-brown look to them whereas the Kahls tend to be more pinkish-orange.

Easiest way to find out is to ask the person you got it from in a trade. If they don't know, they should be able to find out. If no one knows, assume Kahl. Breeding trials will prove it one way or the other. You should be able to make an educated guess based on the trade value, sharp sunglows go for more than regular sunglows.

Good luck
-April

p.s. I've been searching this morning for the prior threads about kahl vs sharp, there was one post in particular the spelled out all the breedings that would need to take place to prove out a sharp/kahl expressed boa and it did end up with 1,000s of 'leftover' boas. I wish the search function on KS was more user friendly (ex. being able to search only one forum instead of all of them). ah well.
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

Maybe not thousends of unknown but is this what you were looking for?

link

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

well okay, maybe not 1,000s but still 1,000s of headaches!
Thank you for finding that link for me! It's going into my 'links of interest' file right now.
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

Hard to say, but probably a kahl, because their are more of them . The sharp sunglow would would have carried the name "sharp sunglow" in most cases as well. How old is the sunglow ? If he is over 2 yrs old, he also had a hefty price tag as well. Nice animal. Maybe you and Guy could do some type of breeding loan, and find out in about 8 yrs. LOL

My 2006 Sharp Sunglow. Orange tail line.