Reptile & Amphibian Forums

in your opinion which is better. i haven't tried keeping my snakes on pine but i can get 12 cu. feet for $6. and the only aspen i can find locally is a small bag from target for $4 or $7 from petco. So even if I had to clean more often i would save a lot of money. and I could spend all day in my snake room so it's no problem.

Go with Aspen in my opinion. Its not scented like Pine is and some people say Pine can cause Respiratory issues. I dont know if it really does, but why take a chance. You can get a bag at Walmart for 2.99 of Aspen bedding and its a pretty good sized bag.

but i would need like 30 bags to clean cages once. maybe someone knows where i can get aspen in southern california. i get pine from a local feed store but they dont have aspen.

Hi

Try going directly to the distributors. They sometimes sell to the public as long as you pick them up or buy the minimum order. You'll save some $$$ this way than purchasing from the store since you cut the middleman. Try finding out from the bedding company where is the closest distributor in the area. Then start calling them and asking if you could purchase some for pick up. You will have to maybe purchase a minimum of around 10 bags to get them to say yes but either way you'll save some $$$. If you have some herper friends that needs bedding too. Try to combine your order to get the distributors to sell to you with a bigger order. It may even get cheaper if you do.

As far as choices, I prefer shredded aspen(Kaytee) since I had experienced some respiratory infection with pine with some of my snakes. I also use aspen chips and it is also very good. If your decide to get pine try getting dust free and klin dried types to make sure the dust and oils would not affect your animals. Hope it helped.
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Jonel @ Selective Propagations
www.spsnakes.com

you can get 4 cubic feet for like $10. Under cages and supplies.

why not just go with the cheapest, easiest, substrate on the market.. Newspaper???

Posted by: mikerusso at Fri Feb 3 18:31:16 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

why not just go with the cheapest, easiest, substrate on the market.. Newspaper???

Because its real ugly the snake I imagine gets ink on it to and snake cant burrow in it only hide under it .

Excuse me, but why are you giving advice on information you know nothing about? I understand you have all the right to voice your opinion. If you like Aspen shavings, then say you like it and why you like it. But do not base it on heresay and totally inaccurate heresay. Surely you must understand the people asking these questions are looking for "experienced" opinions, not opinions from someone with no more experience then themselves. You admitted you were basing your opinion of questionable information. So again, why pass on that same inaccurate information?

The reality is, pine shavings have been successfully used for decades and decades. I have successfully used it for over 40 years. It does not cause RI. Really poor husbandry causes RI. Not anything to do with the shavings, such things as poor temps, combined with wet and dirty substrate(any kind)can cause your snake/s to compromise their immune systems, thus getting RI or mouthrot.(stress induced maladies)

Again in reality. If someone chooses wood shavings, either aspen or pine is good. There are more differences between different grades of each, then each is to eachother.

That is, both come is small chips to large chips or strands(aspen) The use of these is based on your particular need. Large snakes, small snakes, deep substrate, shallow substrate. Its more important to understand the use. Or what additives have been added. These products can have artificial scents added to please PEOPLE. Which in turn sells the product.

Lastly, access is important, If a person has a hard time finding one or the other, then simply use the one you can find easily. Particularly if it effects how often you replace it. If one is hard to get and you end up not changing it out when needed, then get whats easy to find.

So in my opinion, its more important to understand the use of a substrate and the ability to purchase it easily then If aspen is perferred over pine shavings. If you polled any number of people, you will find keepers that perfer one or the other or keepers like me, both. Cheers

Thanks. That really helps a lot. I think i'll try pine because i like to change cages atleast once a week. and i can't afford that much aspen. unless i could find it bulk but i already know how to get the pine.

Frank,

There is some evidence that pine shavings cause respiratory irritation in rodents. I don't remember exactly when I read the paper, but somewhere online on a rat-lover's site somewhere, I found a link to the original research.

There is no indication that this applies to reptiles, of course, but there apparently is data supporting the hypothesis of aromatics in pine shavings causing problems in rodents.

For what it's worth.

Chris
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

There are lots of other sites online.

I might also point out that the culprit in these suggested dangers are aromatic phenols. Other data suggest that aromatic phenols are highly toxic to snakes, which is why cleaning your cage with pine-sol or lysol is such a no-no.

I, like you, have used pine and never lost a snake to any cause I could attribute to the pine shavings. However, I am not prepared to dismiss the possibility of these phenols disrupting respiratory epithelia in snakes similarly to the way they do in rodents. Aspen isn't that much more expensive.

Chris
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I can tell you that there have been many studies and endless reports that show that aromatic phenols in woods like pine (mild) and cedar (much more dramatic) can have toxic effects on the livers of many types of small animals (mostly mamals). I have seen papers that have docmented liver problems in snakes caused by cedar, but have never seen anything that specifically relates to pine. However, I can tell you that the aromatics in both woods share many chemical properties and so I wouldn't discount the possibility that pine can have long term effects.

My computer is being fixed so I don't have access to any of my files or bookmarks, but I will post some relevant studies on this matter next week when I get it back.

Like I said, I have never seen any direct studies about pine and reptiles, so if people like Frank (who have been using it for years) say there is no harm done, then I would be inclined to believe it. And I'm pretty sure hes right about the RI issues as well.

On a personal preference... I wouldn't want to live with my face about an inch away from some strong smelling pine chips so I don't ask my snakes to.

All woods do what you say, but to different degrees, like you said. But two things are very clear. liver damage does not manifest as RI(whats being accused) and two, the time it takes is longer then the animal in questions functional lifespan.

Many snakes have lived over 30 years, on pine shavings. Which is far beyond their functional lifespan. Same for mice, their functional lifespan is from 6 to 10 months, mostly dependant on stress and diet. But they can live over a year. Our mice do not die from liver damage, they seem to die of reptile bite, hahahahahahahahahaha. Boy is that funny. Cheers

Posted by: zach_whitman at Fri Feb 3 14:43:04 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I can tell you that there have been many studies and endless reports that show that aromatic phenols in woods like pine (mild) and cedar (much more dramatic) can have toxic effects on the livers of many types of small animals (mostly mamals). I have seen papers that have docmented liver problems in snakes caused by cedar, but have never seen anything that specifically relates to pine. However, I can tell you that the aromatics in both woods share many chemical properties and so I wouldn't discount the possibility that pine can have long term effects.

My computer is being fixed so I don't have access to any of my files or bookmarks, but I will post some relevant studies on this matter next week when I get it back.

Like I said, I have never seen any direct studies about pine and reptiles, so if people like Frank (who have been using it for years) say there is no harm done, then I would be inclined to believe it. And I'm pretty sure hes right about the RI issues as well.

On a personal preference... I wouldn't want to live with my face about an inch away from some strong smelling pine chips so I don't ask my snakes to.

My vet said the same thing about the oils and liver so I switched to Aspen which he suggested. Better safe than sorry.
I will say I loved the pine for my snakes and my gunea pig .
I dont doubt for a second that the guy in this forum that said they kept their snakes for 20 yrs on pine is wrong but after my vets suggestion I opted to switch.
I am suprised that they sell Cedar at all considering how lethal it is atleast with pine jury is still out.

>>www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html
>>
>>There are lots of other sites online.
>>
>>I might also point out that the culprit in these suggested dangers are aromatic phenols. Other data suggest that aromatic phenols are highly toxic to snakes, which is why cleaning your cage with pine-sol or lysol is such a no-no.
>>

Most pine shavings available now a days are kiln dried to burn off the majority of the phenols making it far less toxic. The same is not done with cedar (if it can be done at all).

If a choice had to be made between pine or aspen.. go with aspen because there is a great deal less dust in it. Pine dust is quite irratating and clogs up the nostrils and such and that dust can lead to RI/congestive problems. I see pine commonly marketed as being dust free or sifted to reduce dust levels, etc... tis not the case. Dust in aspen is minimal compared to even the best pine shavings.
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_____

PHWyvern

Two discussions of what IS known about the effects of pine aromatics on mammals -
www.trifl.org/cedar.shtml
www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm

Here, in a contrary opinion, this author feels pine is safe, but only references its effect on hepatic microsomal enymes in rabbits. She makes no mention of the possible effects of aromatics on respiratory epithelia -
www.trifl.org/cedar.shtml

And lastly here is a link to Melissa Kaplan's take on the pine issue - www.anapsid.org/cedar2.html

What I find most telling in her discussion is this quote -
Through the years I watched for research on herps and pine, but so far have seen nothing. In the meantime, there has been a growing body of literature on the effects of pine volatiles on humans and a variety of other animals and plants. True, they don't address reactions documented in reptiles. By the same token, there isn't any literature on the toxicity or lack thereof of antifreeze in reptiles though its toxic effects are well-documented in dogs. Does that mean that it's okay to fill up your lizard's bowl with antifreeze as a treat from plain water? Of course not. It does mean that, in the absence of species-specific research, we need to use our best judgement in evaluating the research that does exist and how it may affect our herps. Would I use pine shavings now? No. As for household products containing pine oil, I did not, and still do not, use any such products: household cleaners, incense, essential oils, etc.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

At this time I am commerially raising and selling mice(todays mouse day). I have mouse cages that I bought 38 years ago and still use them. During that whole time, I have used pine shavings from about a zillion sources. And guess what? you guessed it, I never, and I mean ever, as in never ever, had mice get RI. Again, I have to wonder.

You ask, what I wonder about, well, I wonder about people with all these sick creatures. What I think is, stop blaming the tools and start blaming the person using the tools. As Dr. Phil would say, take ownership, which means, take responsibility for your actions. Consider tools are consistant, people are horrifyingly inconsistant.(they make mistakes)

Please sir, about a million people use pine shavings as rodent bedding. Which means about a billion mice are raised on Pine shavings, I know this sounds like an exageration, but I bet its a low number, givin time and the whole stinking world. So if one or two or ten people blame Pine shavings, my guess would be, not to blame the shavings but blame something else.

Well it could be bad batches or a specific type that contains something deleterious, some oddball additive, like that perfume. But surely its not Pine shavings in general.

Over the years I somehow started ignoring heresay passed by "somebody" and started believing my own successful experiences, and information from those I know and trust. Doing that has really worked out for me. Cheers

There are vets that say pine is bad from what they have experienced and learned thats how the whole pine/cedar is bad thing got started . My vet told me to switch from Pine to aspen for my gunea pig as he has cases of rodents with problems he said were from pine oils .
My gunea pig died the week I switched to aspen. Just goofing he is still alive but what he said makes sense he said Cedar was bad to same thing the oils.
I must say the pine did smell great but didnt want to risk it . Our vet knows his stuff .

As I explained, I have kept snakes(huge numbers of them) for over 40 years on pine shavings(how lucky am I, again)

Cedar will kill snakes in a very short time. If you really want to learn, test it. Take a normal deli cup like many keep babies in or display at shows, and put pine shavings in one and cedar in the other, then place a snake of your choice in and monitor the progress. You can do that or I can tell you the result. The one with cedar will show effects within a few hours to overnight, and will be dead within a few days. The time will actually depend on temps and air transfer. The snake in pine shavings will show no ill effects. But please don't believe me, TEST IT.

So your a perfect example of passing wifes tails. hang on, I must go tie a knot in the corner of my bed sheet, I heard a owl hoot last night. You know if you don't tie that knot, your baby will choke in its sleep. Cheers

Posted by: FR at Sat Feb 4 12:49:32 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

As I explained, I have kept snakes(huge numbers of them) for over 40 years on pine shavings(how lucky am I, again)

Cedar will kill snakes in a very short time. If you really want to learn, test it. Take a normal deli cup like many keep babies in or display at shows, and put pine shavings in one and cedar in the other, then place a snake of your choice in and monitor the progress. You can do that or I can tell you the result. The one with cedar will show effects within a few hours to overnight, and will be dead within a few days. The time will actually depend on temps and air transfer. The snake in pine shavings will show no ill effects. But please don't believe me, TEST IT.

So your a perfect example of passing wifes tails. hang on, I must go tie a knot in the corner of my bed sheet, I heard a owl hoot last night. You know if you don't tie that knot, your baby will choke in its sleep. Cheers

That test makes no sense because cedar you see the results right away but the pine might take months,years so that doesnt mean it isnt bad . My vet knows what he is talking about however I dont doubt you at all when you say you have kept snakes for decades on pine.
I have noticed that a few have .
I switched to Aspen just to be on the safe side after the vet told me. Hearing an owl hoot or tieing knots isnt the same as oils a wood might give that might be harmfull.

I'm kinda new here also, and am not an expert on anything being talked about here. however, if you were to speak to me like that, we'd have issues. That person was offering as much help as they could to the original poster, and you fried em for it. I don't know you, and never will I'd guess, but there was no need for your first paragraph.

maybe I'm overstepping my new-guy bounds by confronting an obvious veteran, but right is right, and rude is rude...

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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.3 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

n/p

HAHAHA! You ARE new! This is Frank! Live and learn, and get a thicker hide! Welcome to kingsnake! HAHAHA!
Todd Hughes
Seriously, dude, he's trying to help.

Yes Kd, FR is commonly rude in the way the he writes his posts. After being around the forum for a while you grow to expect it and while it is irritating, He isn't worth taking the time to get psd off. I just take what is good and informative from his posts and let the rest wash away. I do however hope that eventually some nicer communication skills could develop since he is so full of knowledge.

Its more about a deep seeded anger, generated by being able to actually see the abuse these poor animals go thru. I knew it exsisted, but did not have to see it daily.

People abuse the animals, then want other people to be extra nice to them. Forgive me, I do have a hard time dealing with that.

You must also consider my age, I am nearly 60, most of my peers in biology, do not condon the keeping of wild animals(any longer) Because of the decades of abuse, they have witnessed.

So yes, its nothing personal, its just something thats built up and common on all the reptile forums.

I guess I just have to much faith in people. I would think in this world of super fast comunication, that you would know and understand such basic things. Forgive me. cheers

i think i understand your view. the local petshops hate to see me come in. i sometimes wonder if it is right to breed anything that may end up in one of the holes around my town. i have bought some snakes out of pitty even guilted them into giving them to me. they usualy do not pull through but the ones that do i find a good home for. the way some of them (pet shops)keep their animals just burns me. i'm just glad we have a place here to learn and share how we have solved a problem.

WOW! That's as good as it gets from Frank! In all the years I have been lurking and posting that's as nice as it gets! That was a big step and good for you, boss! You have been a great source of help and comedy to me, thanks!
Todd Hughes

You do understand, I realllllly like humor and I think people should use more of it. You know my next project is crossing a monitor to a kingsnake. That way ZETSENS snakes will have hands of their own. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha whoops did it again. Cheers

LOL! Now THAT'S funny, I don't care where you're from!
Todd Hughes

Please understand, there are several things to consider, the keeper or human, never gets fried, the caged animal does. It lives or dies, the human only suffers emotional stress or not.

I offer things in a frank manner, I do not treat any of you different, not because your, young or old, or male or female. I may treat you different by experience level. But then again maybe not.

Heres the deal, if your concerned about how nicely information is offered(put to you) then don't keep animals, sooner or later, they(the animals) are really going to put it to you.

Also, beginers somehow cannot stay being wrong, or told or insinuated that they are wrong. The problem with that is, as beginers, they are darn near always wrong. Experienced keepers understand they have been wrong so often, that its not a problem. Just offer me a better way and then nicely get out of my way. Get it? cheers

He asked for "opinions" in his posts and I stated what My "opinion" was in mine with some backup. Now we have your opinion and we all feel complete.

thanks FR.

He acknowledged that you're entitled to share your opinion. However, his criticism was based on how you claimed to back up your opinion. He's riding on 40 years of experience whereas you're quoting what you heard other people say. He shared his opinion with confidence, but you admitted you weren't really sure as to the truth of what you heard other people say.

I think as you become more experienced, you learn how to distinguish who has experience and who doesn't. This is key when you choose whom you want to listen to. You have your paper experts who read books and caresheets and enjoy giving advice--based on what they've read. And then you have the real experts with practical experience who can tell you what they've personally dealt with. There's a problem with the former because once an off-base idea gets written down, it's very hard to dismiss because caresheets & books are usually based on generations of other caresheets & books. My vet said herself that wrong information takes years and years to erase in the animal science field.

I understand how he expressed his own opinion wasn't the friendliest manner, but that's how a lot of people are in this particular forum. People here get into piss-fights but then come back the next day with no hard feelings, only to get hatch out another piss-fight.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

You expressed that very well, OK, I am jealous. Good job.

After responding to these same kind of posts over decades or with massive numbers, the needless frills just fall off. Sad, but true, thanks and again, good job.

Good post, you nailed it.

Will

i use aspen for one reason. i buy the shredded stuff so the snakes can tunnel all over. as far as the price use news paper. if you want a wood type use whichever the r.i. will develop from poor care. the biggest problem you will face from aspen or pine is it getting stuck to the food and going down the pipe. this is what you should look out for. i just had a thayeri get a piece caught up last night and i took some pics
one is the mouth cocked open on one side look at the eye you can tell something is wrong
one pic is a close up showing a very small pcs sticking out
one is of the pcs i pulled out and trust me it hurt him bad
i feed these little guys on a tray but i turned away and he pulled the pink off. later i knew something was not right by the "LOOK" on his face. keep an eye on them and you should be o.k.

Ill throw my hat into the debate I guess. I like neither but not becuase of possible health risks of the wood itself. I feel that waste material and whatnot goes unnoticed in wood shavings. Even if you spot clean everyday you are still missing some, I promise. I believe the reason some snakes get RI on woodshavings is because of hygiene and many peoples lazy ways of cleaning their cages. I use newspaper and papertowel and that seems to work best for me. I can see how their fecal material looks for health reasons and I know when they have soiled their cages and I can then clean them. For you guys that have been using shavings for years more power to you Im just offering up why I think shavings suck.

Keith
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Keith is right on with respect to the advantages of papertowels and newspaper. One problem that has been reported with newspaper is the potential trouble dyes in the paper might bring. One thing I like about aspen is the opportunity it gives the cage inhabitants to burrow and regulate themselves to a greater degree. As to ingesting the substrate that is a problem unless you feed in another container. Now as to FR ever being less than direct, etc.--it aint a happen' thing!!! I've known him since 1963 and he hasn't changed!!! But don't discount his word. Frank has forgotten more than I'll ever know!!!

Pastor Pat

this is simple buy a paper shredder and presto your snake can burrow and you dont have to worry bout the wood ;>