Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After perusing this Forum for some time I've grown concerned with the number of posts relating to inconsequential (IMO) symptoms, events, etc. relating to Chams and the subsequent advice that follows.

I want to throw this out - not to offend anyone but to generate a helpful dialogue:

Micromanaging herps - paying undue attention to minute details, variances, or behaviors, then reacting or overreacting, whichever the case may be. Oftentimes if a herp is left to its own devices it will settle down, come around, resume feeding, revert to "normal" coloration, lay its eggs, etc., etc. I feel diligece can be harmful as often as helpful depending upon the keeper's reaction. Once we start thinking they're more than what they basically are...a reptile....imaginations and paranoia can creep in resulting in wholesale changes to the animals diet, environment, enclosure.......which can cause the eventual demise of a herp when all along it was just "being" a herp!

Case in point - I keep my adult Panthers and Jacksons in 2'x2'x3' cages, minimal fake greenery, UVB bulb and a low wattage heat lamp (on the Panthers). I travel usually 3 days and 2 nights every week on biz. and they get neither food nor water during these times but, they're thriving! Now, how would most of you react if a newbie came in and described this regimen?

My baby Jacksons are misted once a day by my 12 year old son but are also not fed during my trips..yet I've only lost one (runt) since they were born 5 mos. ago and the remaining 13 are doing very well. Would anyone consider this to be optimum conditions for success? It is what it is 'cause a dude has to work!

I think the reason they're doing well is that my absences force me to not mess with them! I have a female Veiled who's appetite had been about 50% of normal since she laid her eggs. She got very skinny (for her) but the "basics" remained static and I just waited her out. I was a bit nervous and concerned but left her alone and didn't change a thing. After about 5 mos. of this she suddenly turned back on and is "normal" once again. I can't help but think had I overreacted early on and started tinkering, she'd probably be dead.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is even with the best of intentions, to much attention and intervention can sometimes be a bad thing.

Just tryin' to stimulate some ideas here.

Bill

Bill,

I think you bring up a good point, and I certainly hope that it becomes a useful discussion here. If my experience has taught me anything, it's to leave stuff alone. Plain and simple, chameleons do best with limited exposure to people.

I hate to say it outloud, but one of the worst things you can do when your chameleon is in bad shape is take it to a vet that doesn't know what he or she is doing. The chameleon is guaranteed to be stressed by the trip, stressed by the handling, and stressed by (and I've said this before) the manhandling of the vet. Granted, there are reasons a chameleon needs to be taken to a vet (minor symptoms that you're not capable of fixing yourself), but once they're past a certain point, taking them to a vet just finalizes the deal.

My cages are decorated at a minimum level, with needs and privacy being top priorities. I furnish them with a single basking area, usually a single live plant, and 2 to 3 branches across each cage. I also go out of town often, and my chameleons aren't fed in these times. Nothing dies while I'm gone, and if anything, the occasional fasting is good for them, and the privacy helps too. I'm not saying that expanding on that is bad, just that it's un-needed and is potential for stress as it may require more maintenance by you. I spend probably 2 hours a day doing everything top to bottom for over 100 panther chameleons.

I've talked to Bill in person about this already, and we have noticed and agreed on these things. Again, Bill, I invite you to stop by and check it out for yourself - I'm tellin ya, it works!

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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

Thanks Tyler!

If you'd reply to my e-mails I'd be at your house now lol! I was motivated to write this thread as it seems like keeping Chams healthy long term is a complicated endeavor..and its not. Reptiles are amonghst the most "basic" of all vertebrates and usually have simple, but consistent, needs. All the rest is just fluff for the keeper's benefit.

Of course, sometimes its the identification of species- specific basics that is the hardest part! Thats what these Forums are for and are a fabulous resource for all. Nice Emmy, I'll trade ya' 7 baby Veileds, 7 baby Jacksons, a lone male Montium, 16 baby Beardeds, 1.1 Moluccan Scrubs,and, and,and....lol!

Hello all. I agree with both of you . My problem is that i get real paraniod about the chams.I think I get more sressed out than them . Then I just have to keep in mind That by me always wanting to try to fix something I end up just making things worse. Its funny I have a female vieled she is a beast and healthy in eveyway she is also 2 1/2 years old .consitering 1)she was bought at the fleamarket 2)I was familiar with herps but not he complexities of chams 3)she almost died 2 times due to what i know now is she was dehidrated sevierly 4)her first clutch had to be layed at the bottom of the cage(lack of laying site) and this girl is beautiful!!! confusion in cham info has led to this, I feel. I also feed her pinkies befor and after she lays her clutch. About 2pinkies 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after. Some cham enthusiests think it is horible thing to do for varius reasons but all I know is she is this old and layed 7 clutches of infertile eggs and she is healthier than ever hopfully this clutch will be fertile and all will go well.I think this is a great topic instead of cutting people down and some deserve it but others well... some of the bad things she went through made me study chams and really get into them. I found something I really enjoy .Well I have to go because I have to order some silkies . The chams I have got from tyler are eating me out of house and home LOL
later kevin

I was reading some of the new posts and this was what I was speaking of in my re. post. The argument over babies in glass cages. This is a matter of conflicting opinions. Some people have great sucsess with this meathod and promote it and some are totally against it.Can make a new cham owner real intimidated and cause thier chams stress over it. I wish people can see that thier way is not the only way to do it.Ialso know by reading other forums that some people have no idea on cham husbandry. I really enjoy this topic and hope for more indepth dicusion like this on this forum. alot of knowlegible people on here. I have found that alot of problems with newbie cham owners would be solved if they would only read about proper cham care.
kevin

I turned to this forum when I was experiencing a "crisis". I did so because I figured that there would be people with experience that could help me out (believe me, I was at a loss).

I could be considered a novice when it comes to reptiles...My cornsnake (5 and 1/2 feet long) lives in a 15 gallon tank with a stupid fake plant, and a tupperwear bowl for water. Some snake keepers would cringe at this...she has nothing fancy and is fine. I feed her when I remember (or she is bumping the top of the cage) and she is fine. Pudge live two years in our loud, crazy home...next to two ferrets and 3 dogs and us! She was fine. All my animals live well, they are loved but not overly "kept". The dog bowls are filthy and chewed up...they still eat out of them. The horses are hairy and muddy, but still happy. All in all, I am a firm believer that they have long survived without human intervention...

But, being able to converse with others regarding your experience is priceless. Keep the "long threads" coming, because at the end of a bad day, its nice to be in contact with others who share your same interests. As for "bad advice"...that exists around us in every single aspect of our lives...I hope that people use common sense. I received alot of imput about Pudge...I processed it and used what "made sense".

I am getting a new cham...and I will be here to share and discuss my experiences with him. After all, its human nature to gab...gab...gab...

Keep it simple...and remember....tv stinks right now...I will read it all!
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2.1 Black Labs Tucker, Raider and Lacey
1.0 Lepoard Gecko Kumar
3.0 Horses Smoothie, Rocky and Bogey
1.1 Ferrets Tank and Ellie (The fun fuzzies)
0.1 Veiled Chameleon Pudge RIP

You guys are right. I have noticed in my experiences with reptiles, that the less you mess with them, the better they do. Most reptiles hate to be touched. A few years ago, I left a cage of baby Jacksons open by accident. It was around May. Three babies escaped into the yard, which I never found. Around the end of August, I was cleaning some ivy off the fence. There, I found two of them, in perfect health, and the same size as the ones in the cages from the same batch. That side of the house recieved no water, or rain. They survived hot days, and the possibility of getting eaten by something. About a month after that, the third was found by my neighbor. It too was in perfect health. I know it sounds crazy, but I leave my chams outside even if there is a thunderstorm with rain and winds. I notice that they are much stronger than the ones I have inside. Also, after a good rain, they look so good. I used to be paranoid, but I realized that they go through this in the wild. This is why they are such survivors. Thanks for listening to my rambling, Josh

To keep it short and simple (like me! LOL)
Billy and Tyler....yes. The less intrusion, the better. Keep their basic needs met, do not over-react and let 'em be.

Enough said...short & simple!

I agree with your post Bill. But one thing that is catching my eye is that this post could also be getting some chameleons in trouble. While everyone is agreeing with you i would like to give a screnio and to see what you an Tyler think about it. Okay first off, We can all imagine that you and Tyler especially, keep your chameleons in top ideal condition. But for some beginners this ideal conditon is not always met. let's say a rookie keeper,no offense to anyone, had a chameleon that had a infection of sorts creeping up on it. Now i would have to imagine that leaving the chameleon without food/water for a couple of days could defintly not do the chameleon anygood. Or lets say a chameleon is already dehydarted and the keeper decides he can go on a trip for the weekend and the cham will be fine from fri-sun. this would simply add to the dehydration of the cham. Also if he was getting dehyrdated further and also had a infection lurking close i doubt that the days without food/water would be good for the chameleon. I am just trying to get the point across that a fair amount of chameleons are not kept in the kind of condtion they should be. the keeper might not know any better but this post could give him the idea that he doesnt need to pay as much attention to his chameleon as he thought and further leading to the decline of his chameleon.

while we can be sure a heahtly chameleon could easily put up with/ or benifit from the fasting, this is not always the case. Maybe i am wrong here but not everyone can keep their chameleons in the ideal condtion and not everyone would have a clue if an illness were grabbing hold of their cham. I just think that if a chameleon was kept in sub-par condtion, depriving it of water/food for maybe only a few days would not be in the chameleons best intrest.

im not trying to come off as an a$$ or anything i just want to know what you would think of how an already water/food deprived, or possibly a chameleon that is hiding a illness, which they can do so well, would handle this.

I see your point, and I agree with you completely. I wasn't really hitting on the "leaving town" part of it so much, just the general idea that you don't need to check on a chameleon 6 times a day to monitor things, and staring into the cage worrying about why the baby chameleon someone got from UPS 45 minutes ago hasn't eaten it's 1" crickets yet (I hear that one alot LOL).

But while we're on the topic of leaving town, personally, before I go out of town, I make sure everyone's hydrated, everyone's fed and cages are clean. If there was something that needed to be attended to (treating an infection for example), I could line someone up to take care of that for me while I was gone. The water, at least here, is pretty much done on timers, so the hydration part of it doesn't become an issue for me. Even if it wasn't, though, a chameleon's not going to die without water for a few days. Often, a few days without water won't even show a sign of dehydration.

Bill may want to chime in, as he came by here yesterday and saw for himself how simplicity works. Hey, Bill, how are your snakebite wounds healing by the way LOL....

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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

not all of us want to see another mammal eaten espceially in living color
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

this is a valid and interesting thread and glad that Bill brought it up. tim also brings up some thoughts that had crossed my mind so I have nothing to add except...

Last year, Carlton and I worked with PHWyvern (moderator, for those who don't know) to get the article and setup questions posted as a permanent part of the cham forum. We discussed the need for FAQ and Wyvern was all for it, but our time (and of course my personal experience) was limited. So my thought is this: maybe Tyler, Bill, Reptayls, Carlton, Chris Anderson, kinyonga, Eric A. and/or others (sorry, don't mean to leave anyone out ) could collaborate on putting together a FAQ section where newbies as well as anyone reevaluating their setup, can refer to. Or maybe it would be just a few of you, but the need is there. Who better for this to come from, but the experienced keepers and reputable breeders. Just a thought, and one I hope comes to fruition.

that's it

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

np
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

LOL, nice pic Tyler. I love babies (rat pups incl.) but nature is nature and that is part of the "circle of life"! You're lucky to get to experience it first hand.
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Feenie

thanks for responding. I know a chameleon wont die without water for a few days, i was justing saying it wouldn't be a good thing for a chameleon who is already going downhill or what not. i wish i could afford to have automatic water systems for my small colony. But i got some buff forearms from pumping that darn spray bottle for 30 mins a day. That is an awsome picture. What kind of snake is that?? Also i was wondering if you saw the gaint snake special on National Geographic that has been playing. Theirs a pic of a huge python that was in the process of taking a human down when it was shoot in the head.

Glad you liked the picture. In an effort to avoid getting the thread deleted and more e-mails, I swapped out the picture I had there for a new one just now. The first picture was an Amazon Basin Emerald Tree Boa, this one is a young Jayapura green tree python.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

WOW, your babies are amazing! All of them! That is a nice looking snake right there!!
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Feenie

Forget the teeny Chondros and gaping Veileds, Scrubs are for the truly adventurous Herper! Weird though, I'd rather get tagged by these than this tempermental Veiled!

Bill

Sounds like you two had a good time!! I'm even afraid to ask what you did! LOL!!
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Feenie

Feenie, enough w/the innuendo! lol Actually I gave him some surplus fruit flies and he gave me some superworms and water crystals. Since we both have young sons we compared notes there as well.

Tyler is branching out to Chondros and Emmies. I've had them for years so its cool to watch him get started. Tyler has some awsome set-ups - functional, rational, and perfect for the application. He's following a good rule of thumb - add herps gradually and well after a good strategy has been formulated and applied.

Bill

Does he have a snake room? I bet it's nice. Something to gush over!! LOL. You boys are funny.
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Feenie

The snake pics you guys have been posting are awesome, I love snakes, just cant do the feedings, I like furry critters too

Need an insect eater, I heard the green rough snake may be a good choice for me. I was reading about them. I like the look also, remind me of vine snakes.

Anyway, your snakes are very NEAT looking, enjoyed the pics.

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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

Bad choice. They are suprisingly difficut snakes to care for. Seems they're one of the few snakes that really need UVBs and if I remember correctly they need high humidity and good air flow....sorta' sounds like a Cham?? Almost all are wild caught.

There are alot of awsome Garter Snake morphs out there now. Some devoted breeders are producing some amazing snakes. Unless you have a thing about feeding fish to a snake.

Bill

sounds like these guys are INTO biting, hehehhehe

OH MY ......................
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!

Really though, I think these two will have lots of fun ahead. Imagine how cool it would be to have a reptile friend who is also a neighbor!! I'm sure we'll hear some interesting stories in the months to come..
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Feenie

LOL no we won't ever know Feenie, unless they make the news, hahahhahaa !
The Vegas Duo, Who's Biting tonight ? Hhehehehe

Anyway yep, that would be pretty neat , the neighbors I have and even MOST of our aquaintances/friends look at me like I'm very strange for being into critters / lizards.

Hard to have things in common with people who just want to shop and buy new shoes, LMAO and are not into lizards.....

Geesh,
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

Next we're gonna' be tagged "Batman & Robin" though we'd probably fight over who has to be Robin! Looks like the ladies are ganging up on us my friend! Probably a good thing I'm going out of town on biz! Oh well, looks like the Chams will have to fast for a few days.

Bill
..and one time only

1.2 Moluccan Scrubs
2.4 Chondros (various locales)
1.1 Sunfire Indian Sand Boas
1.2 Diamond x Jungle Carpets (75% Diamond)
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpets
2.2 Tiger Rat Snakes
1.2.36 (eggs) Bearded Dragons
6.4 Veileds
0.1 Ambilobe Panther
1.1 Emerald Tree Boas (Northerns)
1.2 Pygmy Chams
0.1 Montium Cham
No names, I've never named a herp.

Fred and Barney, yabba dabba doooooooooooooooooooo LOL

Hey have a good trip,
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

'Nuff said! lol

Bill

At least your neighbors just think you are weird, mine call the cops on me for "grow lamps and weird looking plants in the window" LOL, I had like 6 cops at my house ready to take me down town!! I ended up giving them a lesson on Chameleons. I took Stitch over to the neighbors house this summer to "meet" everyone, so I think we are all cool now. I won't have to worry about a raid for a few more years, or at least until I get new neighbors.....
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Feenie

Tyler,

My attorneys will be in touch. Or, we can avoid litigation if you'll just sign over your collection imediately! Too strong? Ok, I'll "settle", give me the Basins and we'll forget anything ever happened! lol

I dream for the days when I only got bit by snakes that tiny - does take me back a bit. Now, if that studly male Sorong I brought by ever clamped down...that would be ugly.

Back to the thread: thanks for all the responses..this was the dialogue I'd hoped to create. My main point was about the "basics", in a perfect world all keepers or potential keepers do enough research to have these down pat. I've just recently noticed posts that seem to emanate from almost obsessive fretting over minutae in regards to their Cham's behavior, skin tone, appetite, etc., etc. This is almost a shout out to "get real"...slow down and give the lizard a chance to be a lizard. They are not robots and don't necessarily suscribe to our predetermined regimens. oftentimes they thrive DESPITE our interventions.

We've all had successes and failures. I lost a male Montium last week and I have no idea why...none. Eating, drinking, "basics" didn't change but there he was, dead. Am I bummed, of course, but I'll hopefully learn from this and move on.

One thing I've learned is that the simpler a set-up is, the less variables one has to "tweak" if an animal does perish or begins to do poorly.

Great responses from all over the spectrum here! Uh oh, second half of the game is starting, 'nuff said for now.

Bill

Love your pictures of the snakes guys...i have a 5 and 1/2 foot corn...she is a beautiful creature. I love the way they move.

After reading and responding earlier...a few extra thougths.

-Any forum is here so that people can converse regarding specific intrests.

-Any forum should have those who can "override" the junk and provide excellent info...thanks vegas and blue, lele, Pheve etc...

-Again...animals lived along time without us...the least intervention the better. (ps...i left my anorexic Gecko alone..and it is eating dried fruit flies on its own)

-People love to talk and love to share...thank god for a place to post my thoughts.

-Even though I live in Portland, Oregon...I am not a SEAHAWKS fan. I felt bad for Mike H...but GO STEELERS! (living on the west coast...I am sure you all now the outcome of the game)
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2.1 Black Labs Tucker, Raider and Lacey
1.0 Lepoard Gecko Kumar
3.0 Horses Smoothie, Rocky and Bogey
1.1 Ferrets Tank and Ellie (The fun fuzzies)
0.1 Veiled Chameleon Pudge RIP
0.1 Snowflake Cornsnake Lucky
1.0 Sunburst veiled-No name yet